00;00;10;04 - 00;00;36;07
Darice
So. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another insightful episode of Yale College Voices and for those who don't know, I am your host, Darice Corey, and I'm thrilled to have you join me today as we spotlight incredible, diverse roles and innovative projects that drive the heartbeat of Yale College. The podcast celebrates the kaleidoscope of talent that shapes the Yale college experience.

00;00;36;07 - 00;01;02;20
Darice
And today, we're going to explore the world of academia, history and social justice, justice. And I have the honor of welcoming a distinguished guest whose work has profoundly shaped the Yale community's understanding of American history, particularly the experiences of African-Americans and women in the 19th and 20th centuries. So our guest today is Crystal Feimster. So hi, Crystal, Thank you so much for joining us today.

00;01;02;20 - 00;01;03;27
Crystal
Thank you for having me.

00;01;04;02 - 00;01;27;22
Darice
Awesome, my pleasure. It's so nice to have an opportunity to chat with you. And I know we went through a you know, we tried to schedule for a while and yeah, I just appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to just, you know, sit with me today and, and, so Crystal, I'm just going to read your bio for our listeners and then we'll just dive into our conversation.

00;01;27;22 - 00;02;22;17
Darice
So. So Crystal Feimster is an associate professor in the department, Departments of African-American Studies and History and the Programs of American Studies and Women, Gender, and Sexuality Studies. Professor Feimster is a native of North Carolina, a historian of the 19th and 20th century African-American history, US women's history and the American South. Her research on racial and sexual violence bridges the fields of social and political history to shed light on long obscured aspects of the American past, exploring absences and asymmetries of evidence in the archival record, she draws on the resources of gender studies, critical race theory, literary scholarship, cycle and cycle analysis to analyze some of the most elusive and traumatic facets of human

00;02;22;17 - 00;02;51;27
Darice
experience. Professor Feimster earned her Ph.D. in history from Princeton University and her B.A. in History and Women's Studies from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. She is the author of the prize winning book 'Southern Horrors: Women and the Politics of Rape and Lynching', and dozens of articles and book chapters. She has published essays in the New York Times, The Chronicle of Higher Education, and Slate.

00;02;52;00 - 00;03;30;25
Darice
Professor Feimster is currently completing two book projects. 'Truth Be Told: the Battle for Freedom in Civil War era Louisiana' and 'Uncivil: Sex and Violence in the Civil War South'. Her research has been supported by the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, the Institute for Advanced Study, and other organizations. Professor Feimster teaches well-subscribed courses on topics including the Long Civil Rights Movement, African-American Women's History, Critical Race Theory, and the Women's Liberation Movement.

00;03;30;27 - 00;04;02;13
Darice
In recognition of her dedication to undergraduate and graduate teaching, she has also received multiple awards, including the Poorvu Family Award for Interdisciplinary Teaching, the Provost Teaching Award, the Berkeley College Faculty Mentoring Prize, the Afro-American Cultural Center Faculty Excellence Award in Teaching and Mentoring, and the Graduate Mentoring Award in the Humanities. Again, thank you so much, Crystal, for joining me today.

00;04;02;13 - 00;04;26;20
Darice
What an amazing career and background. I mean, and we laughed a few minutes ago about, you know, is it the long buyer or the short one? And, you know, it's so inspiring and amazing, you know, especially to see a woman of color, you know, have so many accomplishments. And in this topic, or in the areas that you've studied.

00;04;26;22 - 00;04;44;01
Darice
And I'm just so happy to have a chance to chat with you. And I've, you know, everyone I've told about that you would be my, you're my second guest of the season 2, they are like, "Oh, everybody loves Crystal, she's awesome. Like she's amazing. Everybody loves her", you know.

00;04;44;01 - 00;04;48;06
Darice
And yes.

00;04;48;06 - 00;05;03;23
Crystal
Well thank you. I said this before. I'm really honored that you would have me on the show. You know, as you said, like, I'm busy, but like, I feel like this is the work that's important and I'm glad you're doing it. And of course, I'm always happy to support another sister.

00;05;03;23 - 00;05;06;28
Darice
Yeah, thank you.

00;05;06;28 - 00;05;09;10
Crystal
Out here, you know, shaking things up. So thank you.

00;05;09;12 - 00;05;31;19
Darice
Awesome, Thank you so much. And I'm so flattered. And so I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about your upbringing in North Carolina. As I mentioned to you before we got started, my parents both grew up in North Carolina. My whole, basically my entire family lives in North Carolina. They're all scattered throughout North Carolina.

00;05;31;22 - 00;05;43;22
Darice
So I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about, you know, where you grew up and, and maybe lead into how it influenced your identity and your academic interests?

00;05;43;26 - 00;05;48;14
Crystal
Yeah, no, I. I love that your family's from North Carolina. I'm just gonna.

00;05;48;16 - 00;05;49;14
Darice
We might be related.

00;05;49;16 - 00;05;50;18
Darice
I know it's possible.

00;05;50;18 - 00;05;51;18
Darice
It is possible. Right?

00;05;51;24 - 00;05;58;02
Crystal
And especially because you say your mom is from Wilson and that's not very far from where my people are.

00;05;58;02 - 00;05;58;05
Darice
Interesting.

00;05;58;05 - 00;06;03;20
Crystal
But I, you know, I love North Carolina. It's one of the things also.

00;06;03;20 - 00;06;14;25
Crystal
That I love about New Haven, as I said, that there's so many black people in New Haven whose family roots are in North Carolina and they actually know the difference between South Carolina.

00;06;14;25 - 00;06;28;21
Crystal
and North Carolina and there are a few folks here from South Carolina and they know the difference, too, that like everything they have is in North Carolina. North Calculaki as I say it. It's where it's at.

00;06;28;21 - 00;06;47;01
Crystal
So that, it has made New Haven feel familial and home for me. And I am a southerner. I know I have been in the Northeast for I mean, I left when I was 22 to go to graduate school and I went to New Jersey and everybody thought I was a country bumpkin.

00;06;47;01 - 00;06;50;11
Darice
Yes.

00;06;50;14 - 00;07;04;01
Crystal
And so I have gone back. You know, before coming to Yale this second time, because I was here as a pre doc post-doc in the late nineties. I went back to North Carolina and I was teaching at UNC Chapel Hill, and my family is still there.

00;07;04;03 - 00;07;09;01
Crystal
So North Carolina, you know. You know, I think about that.

00;07;09;01 - 00;07;16;09
Crystal
James Taylor song do you know 'in my mind', I can't sing, but I'm all you know the song I'm going to North Carolina.

00;07;16;12 - 00;07;32;23
Crystal
That like North Carolina is who I am. It's like, it's central to my identity. And I know that. But I'm not always sure other people know that, it was like, but I realize, oh people do know because it's like the first thing that's usually in my bio.

00;07;32;23 - 00;08;00;16
Crystal
It's like a native of North Carolina. It's like I want to claim, you know, my people and where I'm from and for black people who have been deprived of a kind of ancestral home, that place really matters to us as people who have been mobile and diasporic. And so I know that that is crucial to my identity. And and it's also crucial when you're in.

00;08;00;16 - 00;08;44;12
Crystal
the Northeast to own that, because I think there are assumptions about the South and that when most people think about the South, they think about white people. And that the South is this backward, racist place to liberal northerners and that vision. Yes, there's a truth to some of that, but that vision erases the kind of longer history of black people being there and that being our home, and that we don't experience the South as just this racist place that we experience as family and home.

00;08;44;16 - 00;09;04;06
Crystal
And so it's really important for me to claim that and own it. And I do Southern history. You know, I might have left the South, but that's where my intellectual life is rooted. As I say, I grew up in a place called Statesville, now most people be like "is that where the prison was?" And I'm like no in the movies they call it Statesville, like the prison. It's like the generic name and maybe their real states.

00;09;11;28 - 00;09;57;00
Crystal
But it's it was a place where kind of mill town meets kind of furniture. Like when people think about North Carolina furniture in Hickory, North Carolina. Yeah. And, you know, if we go back further, it's sharecropping and slavery and tobacco. But as I said, it's where my family is, where I grew up, ended up going to UNC Chapel Hill, where I was introduced for the first time to African-American history in a kind of classroom setting intellectual, a history that went beyond my family history.

00;09;57;02 - 00;10;11;14
Crystal
And, you know, I think I felt like many college students feel every time they arrive to college. It's like a whole new world to opened up to them. And there's a little bit of anger. Like, why didn't I know this?

00;10;11;14 - 00;10;14;10
Darice
Why didn't nobody tell me this?

00;10;14;12 - 00;10;37;17
Crystal
That it wasn't until even in graduate school that I was like, "oh, all these civil rights leaders". Pauli Murray was from North Carolina. Ella Baker was from North Carolina. Nina Simone is from North Carolina and maybe Thelonius Monk. But like, there are all these great people who are from North Carolina. And I was like, how do I go through a public school system and not learn this?

00;10;37;20 - 00;10;38;06
Darice
And never hear about them.

00;10;38;07 - 00;11;09;04
Crystal
I've learned that I had to go to Princeton, New Jersey, and do research and work with the scholar of African-American history to like, learn about the place that I came from, like where there's the Wilmington race riot and just things that I had to learn that like, when I had to read history and learn I was like, "oh I grew up in Iredell county, oh that is like a home of the Klan in North Carolina", that county. Right. But I knew the Klan was there.

00;11;09;04 - 00;11;13;15
Crystal
I knew they threw their news leaflets in our yard because they thought it was white people lived there.

00;11;13;20 - 00;11;16;13
Darice
You grew up there, yeah. Wow.

00;11;16;15 - 00;11;38;26
Crystal
But so and I think that is typical experience for black people who are in public schools. I think it's typical for white people who are in public schools to not learn the fullness of American history. And, you know, so that's North Carolina, right?

00;11;38;26 - 00;11;39;05
Darice
Right, right.

00;11;39;08 - 00;11;53;06 ??? nail painter
Crystal
It's where I like, I sort of was introduced to African-American history. Women's became a women's studies and history double major and then left to go study Southern history with nail painter at Princeton.

00;11;53;06 - 00;12;22;23
Darice
Wow. Wow. It's amazing. And, you know, as you're, as you were talking, it's true like you're always, you know, if you grew up there, it's in your heart, right? I mean, my parents, they took it with them, you know, when they came here. And a lot of their values or all of their values or what they tried to sort of pass down in terms of, you know, family values and connection and.

00;12;22;25 - 00;13;00;11
Darice
Yeah. And just that, you know, they grew up at a time, you know, during segregation and, you know, so they remember literally being in situations where you couldn't go into certain places or, you know, it was clearly marked for, you know, colored only. And yeah, but it's interesting, like you said, when people think of North Carolina and they think of the the racism that happened first, you know, that's the I guess, first thought that comes to mind.

00;13;00;14 - 00;13;21;12
Darice
Well, thank you for sharing that. And I so I'm curious, what was it, a just your personal kind of eye opening experience when when you started college? Like, I didn't learn all of these things going to school. And that's that's what sort of led you into wanting to be a, you know, researcher and so on or.

00;13;21;15 - 00;13;46;19
Crystal
I mean, I think m, you know, I think when I got to college, not many black people who are first gen whose parents, I had at that point, my mom was single. So and it was me and my sister so single parent household that like, "oh, if you're going to college, you going to make, you going to, you're going to make money".

00;13;46;19 - 00;13;49;03
Darice
Right, right. You're going to do something.

00;13;49;09 - 00;13;50;07
Crystal
Important. Yeah.

00;13;50;07 - 00;14;04;00
Crystal
And that I wasn't going to be a schoolteacher, right? That because I could do that at the community college in some ways. And so I had this idea, "oh, I'm going to be a lawyer". You know, there's three categories.

00;14;04;03 - 00;14;06;06
Darice
Right, lawyer, doctor. Yeah.

00;14;06;08 - 00;14;40;15
Crystal
Wall Street. I don't know. Even though that just wasn't part of the culture of a place like UNC Chapel Hill when I went there, it's so much a part of the culture here. And but I just thought, "hmm, okay. I can't. I'm not good at science" so that ain't gonna happened, right? I'm like, like I'm just like you to get through whatever a math. And so I was like, I'm gonna be, "I'm going to majoring in Humanities and I'm gonna go to law school". And in my mind, I thought I would be a civil rights lawyer.

00;14;40;15 - 00;15;05;25
Crystal
I would be a women's rights lawyer. But I'm going to go make a difference in the world. And got to UNC. And I took a history class, it was like a women's history class. And we had to do, we had to interview our people, our family. I don't remember. I interviewed my great grandmother.

00;15;05;28 - 00;15;34;00
Crystal
My grandmother and my mom. And so and it was like a women's history. And I wrote this paper about black women's history. And I talked about my great grandmother growing up in sharecropping, my grandmother being a domestic, my mom, like struggling as a single parent and had started out in a, working in a sewing factory.

00;15;34;00 - 00;16;11;12
Crystal
Because she was very young. She had me and my sister 15, my sister 16 with me. She quit high school, eventually went back to get her, went to community college to get a B.S. in computer science and really make her way. And my dad very different, right? He also had to drop out. But living in the world that he was living in as a black man and struggle in and out of incarceration, you know, incarcerated, You know, drugs were pretty bad in the eighties.

00;16;11;14 - 00;16;39;03
Crystal
And nineties and he was part of that moment. So my mom ended up being a single parent for a while, for me and my sister. And so when I did this paper on her, it was, it put my family history in the context of the larger, longer history of enslavement and Jim Crow and just coming to terms with what my mom was.

00;16;39;03 - 00;17;02;16
Crystal
She had done, like each generation was doing better than the next. And for me and my sister to go to college, four-year college, that was like a big deal. And that teacher said to me, "oh, this is a really good paper and you should work on this. And you, have you thought about graduate school?". And at that point I was a sophomore, I had no idea what graduate school was.

00;17;02;17 - 00;17;03;24
Darice
Right. Right.

00;17;03;26 - 00;17;04;27
Crystal
I was just like, "what?".

00;17;04;27 - 00;17;05;18
Darice
Yes, yes. More school?

00;17;05;19 - 00;17;12;10
Crystal
"I don't want to be, I don't want to be a teacher". Is what I. And she was like, you know, you could be a professor. And I was like hmm, no.

00;17;12;14 - 00;17;34;24
Crystal
I don't want to be a teacher. I want to be a lawyer. And but I sort of was on the radar of a few faculty members, women's historians in the department, and I had work study. So I worked in, I worked in the Women's Studies office as a work study student.

00;17;34;27 - 00;17;36;24
Darice
Oh wow.

00;17;36;24 - 00;17;52;16
Crystal
And then I remember I had my first black professor and and she was like, oh my God, she did women's history. She's a black woman She was young, from Florida, had gone to Duke and she was just like it was clear to her that her vision was to create a pipeline.

00;17;52;16 - 00;17;53;04
Darice
Yeah.

00;17;53;07 - 00;18;20;28
Crystal
And she was like, You should do this internship at the MLK Papers project at Stanford, and I will support you. And I was like no, I'm going to stay here in North Carolina. And I got a job as like a R.A. for the summer program, like. Because I was black first gen, you know, they had like a summer bridge program for kids who were Black and Native and Latinx that if we.

00;18;20;28 - 00;18;32;07
Crystal
To make sure we didn't struggle, like take a math, take a English in the summer before, we'll teach you about the library and the services. And I had done that and I was like, I'm gonna be a R.A. for that.

00;18;32;09 - 00;18;33;12
Darice
Really.

00;18;33;15 - 00;18;50;16
Crystal
I mean, now they tease me because these are all scholars in their fields and I was just like, I'm not doing that. And then she was like, You understand? I'm telling you that this would be a huge opportunity. And I was like, I know I got a plan. I got to make money , because I said, I remember saying.

00;18;50;16 - 00;19;03;19
Crystal
Will I get paid? I mean, I'm sure there's a stipend or something, but I was like, well, how much? And where when I live? And I was like because I'm on set with this R.A. thing. And so ultimately.

00;19;03;19 - 00;19;34;23
Crystal
They were people who were actively mentoring me and recruiting me. And it took me a while to come to terms with, I think most young people who are intellectually minded and who want to teach and who want to pursue their intellectual interests, that oftentimes they see a disconnect between activism and social justice and and what academics do. And at some point I did ultimately, I didn't do it.

00;19;35;01 - 00;19;57;14
Crystal
After my sophomore year, I didn't do that. I didn't apply for that internship at Stanford. But as I said, the people mentored me and educated me about different pathways. And so between my junior and senior year, I did do the internship at the King's Papers project in at Stanford, and I was like, you know, I remember calling.

00;19;57;17 - 00;20;09;19
Crystal
My mom and was like, Everything's so expensive. Can you like? She was sending me, like, canned tuna and ramen and I was like it just cost so much more here. But it was a moment.

00;20;09;19 - 00;20;43;16
Crystal
Where I realized that to be a scholar did not mean I was not an activist, that I wasn't going to have the power to change the world or think about the world. And that, like, I felt that I owed it. If I went back to that paper, that I owed it to my mom and my grandmother and my great grandmother to lift up their voices and to make sure that they were part of this sort of larger history of what it means to be American.

00;20;43;19 - 00;21;06;27
Crystal
What is good about America what's hard and that we needed to be a part of that story. And that that work would make it easier for the next generation. And so, yeah, you know, my family is really important. The fact that, like I had a community of people who were invested and, and had a, had a mission.

00;21;07;00 - 00;21;37;20
Darice
Yeah, yeah. Had a mission to, to make sure that you, you know, that you succeed and that hopefully you pass that on to, to your family members. And it's so true again, just as you're, as you're talking, I'm like that's, that's my parents all the way. Yeah. You know, it's like you do better than we did. And you know, it also made me think about just this last year, I finished a leadership program here at Yale called Emerge at Yale.

00;21;37;21 - 00;21;38;09
Crystal
Right. Congratulations.

00;21;38;11 - 00;21;39;16
Darice
Thank you, thank you.

00;21;39;17 - 00;22;17;03
Darice
And it was an amazing experience where we were able to, you know, talk to university leaders and, you know, talk about Yale's mission, but also sort of get to know one another. You know, my folks in my cohort and our backgrounds. And what was really interesting, like the final day of the of the program, we had a you know, we just had sort of a talk about did we ever envision that we would be here today?

00;22;17;05 - 00;22;40;17
Darice
Like literally would your the question came up, would your ancestors, do you think they would ever imagine that you would be working at Yale? Right. And, you know, be managers or be leaders or whatever. And it really struck me because I was like, wow, you know, I.

-- IDK, Waited was your head. --
00;22;40;19 - 00;22;41;14
Crystal
Waited was your head.

00;22;41;19 - 00;22;44;18
Crystal
Yeah. That you were their wildest dreams.

00;22;44;18 - 00;22;56;21
Darice
And it's like, wow, that really stuck stuck with me because, you know, my growing up, my parents always push me, you know, constantly, you know, to a point where it was annoying, you know?

00;22;56;21 - 00;23;11;09
Crystal
Yeah. And they but they could see that you're, that your full potential. And I do feel that like my mom always advocated for me to see my full potential and even when other people didn't.

00;23;11;10 - 00;23;12;03
Darice
Right, right.

00;23;12;05 - 00;23;41;09
Crystal
She fought for me to be in like I went to a predominantly white elementary school, public school in the South in, you know, late seventies, early eighties. And, you know, she had to fight, you know, to make sure that I could be in AP courses and have the teachers say I wasn't capable and her to say, well, then fail her if she's not capable, but she's going to be in this class.

00;23;41;09 - 00;23;52;00
Crystal
Yeah, right. And to really advocate for me when I was mistreated. And so I didn't, I couldn't, I was not that person.

00;23;52;01 - 00;23;53;17
Darice
Yeah. Yeah.

00;23;53;20 - 00;24;03;18
Darice
Well I was the person who like let me just get by, like, you know, I know these white people racist but I need, I got class.

00;24;03;18 - 00;24;06;14
Darice
Yes, yes. Like just get through, you know, get through it.

00;24;06;14 - 00;24;12;15
Crystal
Let me just get through there, like don't go rocking the boat, Mom. And she was like and I remember when things had.

00;24;12;15 - 00;24;25;04
Crystal
Gotten to the point at my high school where, you know, that I was the only black kid in many things and I was the only black kid in my drama class.

00;24;25;06 - 00;24;31;15
Crystal
And, they were white. Everybody was racist, teacher was racist. They're just racist. There's no way.

00;24;31;15 - 00;24;44;10
Crystal
That they were gonna be. And I was always the butt of their jokes, like, you could be the tar baby and you can be this like any racist. And they would tell racist jokes in front of me because Well, Crystal, you're you're different.

00;24;44;10 - 00;25;08;09
Crystal
Right? And I just wouldn't say anything because the teacher was in. And so I just, and at that point, I did think I was going to go to art school and that I was going to be a theater person. And so I was like I got to get through drama, because I want to go to the North Carolina School of Arts, and then I had gone to a banquet and I also wanted to be student body president.

00;25;08;09 - 00;25;20;11
Crystal
I had plans. And I ended up being student body president, but I was just like, I'm going be to first student, black student body president. And I have, I'm on the sports team. I had I just had a plan.

00;25;20;14 - 00;25;22;06
Darice
You had dreams. Yeah.

00;25;22;09 - 00;25;43;24
Crystal
And my mom had supported that. But and I was like their racism is not gonna get in the way of me not getting what I want. But things got to the point when I had gone to Awards banquet and I came and it was like at the Howard Johnson and it and all the staff is black like the serving staff was black and we had a banquet room.

00;25;43;26 - 00;25;58;09
Crystal
I was late, I'm the only black person and I sit down and the white kid who's actually the student body president at that time says, Crystal's here. You know, I thought you was the help.

00;25;58;11 - 00;26;10;03
Crystal
And then everybody started laughing. And then, you know, when they started to bring out dessert. They were giving out, you know, whatever the pie or whatever. And somebody said.

00;26;10;03 - 00;26;39;15
Crystal
Oh, don't give Crystal any, she should give her a RC, a moon pie and a RC Cola. And you know, in my mind I'm like, I know this is racist. I don't know the background but like I didn't. And then, it's one white girl beside me she said, and the teacher was laughing, everybody was laughing. And she said, This isn't right. Why do you guys do this? Like this is racist. Like this is not right. And I got up and left.

00;26;39;17 - 00;26;47;28
Crystal
Because I ain't want, I was like, I ain't trying to have no say. They might lynch, I don't know. I just, I got to, and I went to the bathroom and I start crying and the other girl came in.

00;26;47;28 - 00;26;51;15
Crystal
And she was like, Why do you let them treat you this way? And I was like.

00;26;51;15 - 00;26;55;28
Crystal
Because I'm one person in a class, in a school.

00;26;55;28 - 00;27;20;07
Crystal
Where everybody's white and like, I don't have a choice. And and then the teacher came in and she was like, the other girl. You've upset everybody. You know, we're not racists and you need to come back and apologize and you, you and Crystal need to come back in and apologize because this is not acceptable. And at that moment.

00;27;20;07 - 00;27;45;14
Crystal
I was like I got a limit. Like, I will let you be a fool, but I will not let you make me participate in that foolishness. So I was just like, I'm not apologizing. And we laughed and I had to call, like Christy took me somewhere. She's like, We're going to go to a softball game because we were, you know, in high school. And I called my mom from a payphone.

00;27;45;17 - 00;27;49;17
Crystal
And I said, I just want you to know, I left the banquet, I'm with Christy.

00;27;49;17 - 00;28;05;21
Crystal
We at the South Buck-. Why you leave the banquet? I was like, because you know, they said some stuff. And she was like, What? What did they say? And what have they been saying and like. And then I start telling, they do that. And she was like, you need to, you need to come home now.

00;28;05;24 - 00;28;06;25
Darice
Oh wow.

00;28;06;27 - 00;27;10;04
Darice
Your mom was upset with you?

00;27;10;04 - 00;28;10;04
Crystal
She was mad. And I was.
00;28;10;06 - 00;28;11;22
Darice
So she was upset that you left.

00;28;11;24 - 00;28;15;09
Crystal
No she was upset that I'd had, I had been tolerating.

00;28;15;11 - 00;28;16;15
Darice
All of that.

00;28;16;17 - 00;28;19;10
Crystal
And I had told her that like.

00;28;19;12 - 00;28;26;02
Crystal
Who who, you know, like when I came home and I said, they've been doing it. And she was like, That's not acceptable.

00;28;26;04 - 00;28;30;01
Darice
And she didn't know that you had endured all of this stuff.

00;28;30;01 - 00;28;46;28
Crystal
But she was, so she said, I'm going to go to school tomorrow. And she said because she basically, she was mad that I hadn't told her. But she understood why I had not said anything. And she said, You don't have to, you don't have to fight this battle.

00;28;46;28 - 00;28;48;09
Darice
Yeah.

00;28;48;09 - 00;28;56;29
Crystal
We fight, our generation fought this battle so that you wouldn't have to. But I'm going up there and I was like, Please, don't go. Like I begged her not to go. And eventually.

00;28;56;29 - 00;29;16;19
Crystal
She said, I will do what you want me to do. But I will tell you if you do not let me, if I don't go, then I can't. I can't help you. I can't support you. Like when it gets, what like, you're telling me that I can't do what I need to do as your mother. So I was like okay you can go.

00;29;16;22 - 00;29;25;07
Crystal
You know, And of course like, why I didn't want her was because I had to quit drama. Like, I just knew these people weren't going to, like they said they were sorry.

00;29;25;07 - 00;29;38;22
Crystal
But they basically said, this is your mom's issue and, you know, we're good white people. And she's thinking about the past, you know, all of that. But at the end of the day, the lesson for me was I don't have to tolerate this.

00;29;38;22 - 00;29;39;24
Darice
You don't have to tolerate it.

00;29;39;24 - 00;29;50;01
Crystal
And that my mom had to model that for me. And that was how I moved forward from then. Like, I don't have to tolerate people's bull-.

00;29;50;04 - 00;30;07;08
Crystal
And their racism is their problem. It is not my problem. And I can call them on that. And that's, that's what I got from my mom, right. That like you, you can be whoever you want to be, but you're going to have to keep some doors open and people aren't going to make it easy for you.

00;30;07;11 - 00;30;08;06
Darice
They're not going to make it easy.

00;30;08;08 - 00;30;32;15
Crystal
And you are going to have to make choices and sacrifices. And sometimes when you speak truth to power, you lose. Right. And so then it is amazing when we find ourselves in these places and at the table and the potential to be part of what makes this place great, but also what has made it that it wasn't made for us, right?

00;30;32;17 - 00;30;34;08
Crystal
It wasn't built.

00;30;34;10 - 00;30;34;14
Darice
Ah man.

00;30;34;14 - 00;30;45;02
Crystal
To support our dreams and who we want to be, Right. But once we're in these institutions, we are like I always say to my students, we are Yale now. Like you can't be like what Yale did, we are.

00;30;45;02 - 00;30;46;16
Darice
Yes, We are.

00;30;46;16 - 00;30;48;16
Crystal
And so what is our responsibility?

00;30;48;16 - 00;30;48;27
Darice
Right.

00;30;48;27 - 00;31;18;22
Crystal
And in some ways it is to lead. And I'm glad to hear that you did emerge. And yeah, you know, it's part of why I decided to be head of college. Yeah, I was sitting at a leadership thing yesterday with Peter Salovey and two of the, two white women who were presidents of universities who are on the board. And it was like to talk to us about what university leadership looks like as a part of scholars, as learners.

-- IDK, Gary Gladney or Lary Gladney --
00;31;18;22 - 00;31;43;20
Crystal
And Program that Tamar Gendler is running. And, you know, and I was like, you know, there's a whole white panel. Yeah. Two white women. Peter Tamar. And I look around the room and there's one other black person and. Oh no, it's two, because Gary Gladney was there, and then there is another one of my colleagues.

00;31;43;22 - 00;31;55;04
Crystal
And I was like, It's so important for us to be in this space, right? And to take stewardship.

00;31;55;05 - 00;31;56;02
Darice
You're right, yes.

00;31;56;02 - 00;32;09;17
Crystal
And to represent. But it comes at, I don't want to say a cost because there's so many benefits, but it means something to be that person in the room.

00;32;09;19 - 00;32;41;01
Darice
It really does. I, you know so much of what you shared and thank you for being so candid about that because I a lot of it resonated for me. I mean, I experienced certain things that, you know, in my high school life and college years and in into today, you know, where you know and I'll share one story.

00;32;41;04 - 00;33;15;06
Darice
When I, when I was in high school, I was a senior looking at colleges. And I went to so I, I'm from Connecticut. I went to a private school for high school, not far from where I live. And, you know, there were a handful of kids of color, you know, And when I say a handful out of, I don't know how many kids were in our class, graduating class, we were probably about almost 200 and there may have been 5 to 10 of us.

00;33;15;09 - 00;33;37;03
Darice
And, you know, it almost became, I hate to say it because it was almost like we normalized how some of the kids would act or treat us or little things. And I, you know, I wasn't like a straight-A student, but I was a pretty, pretty good student. And, you know, the time came when you start getting all these letters from colleges.

00;33;37;05 - 00;33;39;13
Crystal
Oh they was mad. They was mad about that.

00;33;39;15 - 00;33;55;08
Darice
But here's the kicker, is that, you know, I was getting all these letters and, you know, and I'll be honest, I was naive back then in terms of, you know, Ivy League schools. I really only knew of Yale and Harvard. You know, those are the things that everyone talks about.

00;33;55;08 - 00;33;56;05
Crystal
Because you're from the Northeast.

00;33;56;05 - 00;34;18;08
Darice
Well, yeah. Yeah. And so those are the only two schools I knew about. and, you know, I knew about the schools in Connecticut because I had, you know, relatives or, you know, just people I knew who ended up going to Fairfield U. And Sacred Heart. My mom worked at Sacred Heart for many years, my sister as well.

00;34;18;11 - 00;34;37;27
Darice
And, you know, so I knew of those schools. I had done the bridge program at University of Bridgeport, and which was an amazing experience for me, by the way. so, you know, those are the schools I knew of, right? And I started getting these letters from.

00;34;38;00 - 00;34;38;21
Crystal
Asking you to apply.

00;34;38;21 - 00;35;09;08
Darice
Asking to apply, you know, like from Brown, you know, George Washington, you know, some schools in the I, I couldn't tell you the others but know now I know, these were good schools. I got one from Harvard. when I approached my guidance counselor. And the thing about it, you know, I hate to speak disparagingly of my high school, but, you know, I felt like if you were introverted or quiet, you didn't get attention.

00;35;09;10 - 00;35;31;14
Darice
You know, the popular kids, the athletes got the attention in terms of, oh let's guide you, you know, and help you get into the all these wonderful schools. I always you know, I would literally sit there and wonder, how did they get appointment? You know, I'm like, I don't even know, am I supposed to come to you or you come to me or what do I do like, how do I talk to you?

00;35;31;17 - 00;35;31;29
Crystal
Navigate this, yeah.

00;35;31;29 - 00;35;50;26
Darice
So I finally figure that out, you know? But that's what bothered me. It's like I had to figure it out. It wasn't apparent to me in terms of what's the process, right? And I'll never forget, you know, I brought, I brought some of the letters and I asked like, Hey, you know, I had got this letter from Harvard.

00;35;51;01 - 00;36;14;29
Darice
Like, that was the one that stood out for me, cause I said, it's a Ivy League school, wow. And this guidance counselor told me to, Maybe you should apply for schools that are a little more in your league. And I thought I'm not smart enough? Like, you don't think I was. And then I, you know, I just kind of clammed up because I felt like, well she must know that maybe.

00;36;14;29 - 00;36;24;23
Darice
Maybe I'm not smart enough. and to this day, you know, I even get emotional about it because it's like, how dare you.

00;36;24;25 - 00;36;25;28
Crystal
Kill somebody's dream?

00;36;25;28 - 00;36;35;10
Darice
Kill someone's dream? And affect my journey. And so I never said anything. I didn't tell my mother. I didn't tell her because I felt like at the same time.

00;36;35;10 - 00;36;37;01
Crystal
Ashamed and embarrassed.

00;36;37;01 - 00;36;56;20
Darice
I was ashamed and embarrassed. And then I was wondering like, well, maybe my parents can't afford it. I don't want them to feel bad if I get it. What if I got accepted and then they can't afford it, right? So maybe I'll just stick to the schools around here. And, you know, they gave me pretty decent financial aid, so, you know, I did that.

00;36;56;23 - 00;37;02;02
Darice
But yeah, it's, you know, it's real, right?

00;37;02;04 - 00;37;06;04
Crystal
It's real, I mean feel like the struggle is real. I always say that.

00;37;06;06 - 00;37;10;24
Darice
Yeah, yeah, The struggle is real.

00;37;10;24 - 00;37;12;04
Crystal
Like even then, we might be here, it didn't come easily.

00;37;12;04 - 00;37;12;23
Darice
It didn't come easy.

00;37;12;23 - 00;37;32;04
Crystal
And even when it was easy, it was hard, Right? That like there are many things that, like I, I feel like, yeah, I, I went through this thing in my high school, but at the same time I did become student body president like, that like not all the white people were

00;37;32;04 - 00;37;33;07
Darice
It didn't hold you back.

00;37;33;10 - 00;37;36;19
Crystal
And but it's, it's hard.

00;37;36;19 - 00;37;37;18
Darice
Yeah. Yeah.

00;37;37;19 - 00;37;57;25
Crystal
And I'm sorry that that happened to you. And I always wear it like I feel like my like my kids are in a private school, and they're, they are, the counselors are all about. And I know that they want to say the things and all the things, but I'm like my kids. Anything that the world is open to you.

00;37;57;25 - 00;38;08;00
Crystal
Like, And so I know that I am a force. I am the force that they have to reckon with. It is not the guidance counselor at the end of the day.

00;38;08;01 - 00;38;37;29
Crystal
And, and and that's what my mom made me feel like I'm the force that you have to reckon with. And I'm going to be, I'm going to have your back. I'm going to be the winds in your sail. But it took a lot for me to own that. And it came as like for you, like, I'm sure you own that with your parents, but there are those moments where you feel undeserving.

00;38;38;02 - 00;38;38;20
Darice
Right, right.

00;38;38;27 - 00;38;42;04
Crystal
So you didn't tell them, but like I didn't tell my mom for a year and a half.

00;38;42;06 - 00;38;43;22
Darice
Yes. Yes. I never said anything.

00;38;43;25 - 00;38;51;08
Crystal
And like, if you wait a year and a half, like it's, all bets are off. Like when you're applying for college in that moment. Timing matters.

00;38;51;08 - 00;38;51;26
Darice
Right.

00;38;52;01 - 00;39;16;13
Crystal
And so for me, that moment happened when I was a junior in high school and I was like, oh right, this is not I don't have to feel ashamed or embarrassed. I have to like let my mom own this for me. And so we have to do that for our kids and we have to do for the college students, but they have to also be ready.

00;39;16;13 - 00;39;18;19
Darice
They have to be ready. Yeah, yeah.

00;39;19;17 - 00;39;22;14
Crystal
And you know.

00;39;22;17 - 00;39;23;12
Darice
Yeah.

00;39;23;14 - 00;39;26;26
Crystal
We have to be ready. And it's like and that's sad, right?

00;39;26;26 - 00;39;40;02
Crystal
It's like having the talk with your kids like, you got to be ready for when the cops come, You have to be ready. When that moment catches yourself, that you're ready to like know, the lines are gonna be drawn here.

00;39;40;03 - 00;40;04;15
Darice
That. You know that, like you said, teaching your kids how to handle certain situations and preparing them. Like, if you ever get pulled over like this, these are things you do, you know? And like you said, it's, it's it, it makes me sad sometimes because I have two boys and, you know, the fact that I have to explain to them, this is how you may be perceived.

00;40;04;15 - 00;40;09;28
Darice
So this is how you have to act. Yeah. Yeah.

00;40;10;01 - 00;40;24;07
Crystal
That's that's a rough one for me. I mean I don't even , I feel like I'm, we have to be good parents to these boys and tell them, but it makes me feel like a bad parent because I feel like I have interrupted the innocence of their childhood.

00;40;24;07 - 00;40;26;01
Darice
Yes Yes.

00;40;26;04 - 00;40;42;14
Crystal
And I remember I'm in a mixed race marriage. My husband is white. My son like we were park, because we now live on Park Street. We park in that Howe Street.

00;40;42;16 - 00;40;43;04
Darice
Oh the garage?

00;40;43;04 - 00;40;43;18
Crystal
Yes.

00;40;43;25 - 00;40;45;05
Darice
I used to park there years ago.

00;40;45;12 - 00;41;11;20
Crystal
And if you if you know anything about that side of campus is heavily policed, there are police cars everywhere. It's really where the campus meets the city. Right. I have students who will say to me they would, they don't walk on Park Street. Because they're afraid. And so, you know, one night we had gone out, we had parked and there's that pathway that's kind of dark between the buildings.

00;41;11;20 - 00;41;14;24
Darice
Yeah, I think I know the one that you are talking about.

00;41;14;27 - 00;41;16;08
Crystal
And you come down.

00;41;16;08 - 00;41;30;26
Darice
I literally was talking to a friend because I worked at AYA (Now known as Yale Alumni Association, YAA), so there's a path that's, oh gosh, What street is that on? See, because there was a pathway that led from the AFAM house. Like through there.

00;41;30;26 - 00;41;47;18
Crystal
Yeah. That's it. Like a lot of people. And, and so we were walking my husband and I, and my son had ran a run ahead, then he came back and he was running at us like. Like he was going to attack us, the big, a 13 year old kid.

00;41;47;25 - 00;42;11;06
Crystal
But I was like, I was like, stop it. Like, you cannot do that. Like, you like, I just had this vision of, like, the police seeing him running. And my husband is a white man and that, like, this is a black kid who is. And they may shoot you, and that's like a threat. And my immediate response was like, don't do that.

00;42;11;09 - 00;42;18;29
Crystal
And he is like, What is it? And I say, You cannot do that. Like, you can't you don't get to to, to pretend.

00;42;19;01 - 00;42;25;03
Crystal
Like, And then we got in the house and he is crying and I was like, and dad is like, What is happening?

00;42;25;09 - 00;42;26;13
Darice
Right, right. Yeah.

00;42;26;16 - 00;42;32;02
Crystal
My husband. And I'm like, You are a black boy child, they will shoot you.

00;42;32;05 - 00;42;34;06
Darice
And but it's, it's real, right?

00;42;34;06 - 00;42;47;11
Crystal
And then I felt horrible and I was like, I'm so sorry that you should be able, like, But I'm afraid. And so then my fear makes me like this. I felt in that moment, like a bad parent.

00;42;47;11 - 00;42;48;12
Darice
Really.

00;42;48;12 - 00;43;02;29
Crystal
Who was like, thinking, I want to make my kids safe. But I also don't want like, he was scared of me in that moment. He wasn't scared of the police. Like, what's wrong with.

00;43;03;01 - 00;43;21;02
Darice
What's wrong with mom? Yeah, that's it's hard. I mean, I now, so my, my older son is 20 now and he's starting to get it now. But there was a time period because he, he loved, or still loves, he loves fashion. And he you know, he loves to, you know. And I said, yeah, you can't.

00;43;21;04 - 00;43;25;00
Crystal
I know my kids got the Timberlands and them jeans and I'm like don't let them hang down.

00;43;25;20 - 00;43;26;28
Darice
Right, don't let them hang down.

00;43;27;00 - 00;43;35;27
Crystal
And like, Don't walk around with that thing on your head, the headphones and the hoodie. And he looking at me like, are you?

00;43;35;28 - 00;43;38;00
Darice
No, it's because you're profiled.

00;43;38;02 - 00;43;52;00
Crystal
I love fashion and I love, and I was like it reads a certain way, you cannot be in the streets. But like then again, it's like, is it you know, I think one generation would say we're invested in politics of respectability. And I'm like, but no. This is a politics of survival.

00;43;54;11 - 00;44;18;25
Crystal
If you understand the sort of deep history of what a politics of respectability was coming out of the 19th century and Jim Crow and black women not wanting to be raped in alleyways by white men, then the politics of respectability is a form of resistance. It's a strategy. It's not about middle class black people policing poor black people.

00;44;18;27 - 00;44;42;27
Crystal
Right. But that's the way people understand it now. But unlike poor black people got politics of respectability, right? That whatever's happening in black communities is about being respected, right. And so again, and I'm like, this is a for us, it's like a politics of survival. And that comes at a cost because we are living in survival mode.

00;44;43;00 - 00;44;50;08
Crystal
And I just want to live in the joy of like, our blackness and what we bring to the table instead of like.

00;44;50;13 - 00;45;12;27
Darice
Worrying about, you know, literally your life being taken. Yeah, yeah. Other people's fears and, you know, and like you said, I mean, I do the same with my son like if he's out drive, you know, he's driving at night and again going through like here's what you do and please don't do that. Like, don't do this, don't do that.

00;45;13;00 - 00;45;28;04
Darice
Let's just, you know, and but, but it does make me sad because it's like it takes away some of the, like you said, the innocence of children or just enjoying being a high school kid. But wow. I mean, we could talk about it all day, right?

00;45;28;04 - 00;45;32;00
Crystal
I know. I know. But this is what happens.

00;45;32;01 - 00;45;32;06
Darice
It's true, right.

00;45;32;08 - 00;45;34;11
Darice
When like you connect with somebody. And then there's a kind of.

00;45;34;12 - 00;45;36;04
Darice
And there's a common.

00;45;36;04 - 00;45;36;27
Crystal
A common shorthand and language.

00;45;36;27 - 00;46;01;03
Darice
Yes, Absolutely. And I and I love that. And that, that's what you know, I think that's what has been so great about doing the podcast is learning about how people grew up and you know because it really shapes and molds who you are today and then obviously affected you to the point where like you've devoted your, your life's work to, to all of these things.

00;46;01;03 - 00;46;34;13
Darice
And it's amazing. so I'm wondering, you know, I if you could talk about, wow, we covered so much really. You know, I'm looking at my questions and we cover it. We covered a huge ground, but yeah, were there were there other pivotal moments, like once, once you started wrapping up your college years and moving into, you know, another direction, like, were there certain, you know, figures or people in your life that that really influenced.

00;46;34;16 - 00;46;34;23
Crystal
I feel, I feel.

00;46;34;23 - 00;46;36;17
Darice
Where you wanted to pursue.

00;46;36;18 - 00;47;06;00
Crystal
Really lucky in that regard. Like there like as I said, my mom, it's like my first you know, she's my day one, I have an older sister and like, we're just like 13 months apart. wow. So, you know, everybody think she look younger than me. But you know, whatever. Right. Nonetheless, So those are my, like, they're the two people who've had the biggest influence on me. And then.

00;47;06;00 - 00;47;31;21
Crystal
I moved in a world in which women and black women in particular have lifted me up. I was fortunate, as I said, the black, it was a young black woman historian, who said, you should do this project at Stanford. There were other black women scholars who just basically came in and said, This is what we want you to do.

00;47;31;21 - 00;47;52;29
Crystal
And we will support you. And I had, I was very lucky to end up at Princeton, which is an Ivy League predominantly white institution and have a senior black woman advisor. And I knew that, that like, that would be important to me. And she would joke with me like she's, she's actually coming back to do a .

-- IDK tea? 00;47;52;29 --

00;47;53;02 - 00;47;53;25
Darice
Oh wow.

00;47;53;28 - 00;48;03;01
Crystal
She's got a book coming out and she's an artist. She retired early, but she would joke and say, like, joke but seriously, like, you know.

00;48;03;04 - 00;48;20;01
Crystal
It's not just because I'm a black woman that like, that's not what. And I was like, But yes, I know that you don't think of it that way, but it was really important to me to have somebody who was black and who could understand my experience. Right.

00;48;20;04 - 00;48;33;10
Crystal
And who was smart and brilliant and who encouraged me. Right. And that I could be like, I could be like her. Like I want to be like you when I grow up. And so I was very lucky to have that. Yeah.

00;48;33;13 - 00;49;04;22
Crystal
And there was no you know, there were no, there was no limit at some point on what I could imagine for myself because there was,  she was a full professor, a black woman at Princeton. And I remember when at that point, when I was in graduate school, Toni Morrison was on the cover of Time magazine and then maybe Oprah was after then I remember her saying, I can't imagine I would never have imagined a black woman.

00;49;04;24 - 00;49;05;10
Darice
On the cover.

00;49;05;14 - 00;49;09;29
Crystal
And I'm like, that's just normal for me, Right, Like I will say, like, I remember.

00;49;09;29 - 00;49;14;08
Crystal
When Obama was elected, I thought I could never imagine a black president. But for my kids.

00;49;14;08 - 00;49;15;11
Darice
Yeah, that's.

00;49;15;13 - 00;49;31;24
Crystal
That's not a world in which there isn't a black president like so what it's possible and what you can imagine is based on the context. And so in the context of having seen, seeing black women in places of prestige.

00;49;31;24 - 00;49;32;15
Darice
Right.

00;49;32;17 - 00;49;35;25
Crystal
And power, You know.

00;49;35;28 - 00;49;57;29
Crystal
Allowed me to dream big. Right. And and to do the work in a way that allowed me to use a kind of black feminist praxis. So graduate school, I had that support. And when things went, when people treated me poorly, I had the support.

00;49;58;01 - 00;50;26;28
Crystal
I have felt lucky that people have said, Let me carry the torch for you. Let me carry the water. Let me. Because you got bigger fish to fry. And that has been pivotal in the way that I teach and the way that I hold space for my students. That like I understand why my students, regardless of race and gender, sexuality, religion, are here to get an education.

00;50;27;01 - 00;50;51;15
Crystal
And that my job is to support them in this phase of their lives to figure out who they want to be in the world. And it's especially important for black, my black students and female students and kids of color to make sure that this institution does not distract them from the work that they're here to do. And so that I say that I'll fight that battle for you.

00;50;51;17 - 00;50;53;07
Crystal
You've named it. I will make sure.

00;50;53;07 - 00;51;11;12
Crystal
But you need to go study. Yeah they, the cultural center needs some more money. And you need to. And you can name that. Tell the president. Go do the protests. But today you need to-, because Yale is going to be here. Yeah. Long ago, if you flunk out.

00;51;11;12 - 00;51;12;11
Darice
Right. Right.

00;51;12;12 - 00;51;18;25
Crystal
Your opportunity is gone. Like I'm here. I'm going to help. I'm going to raise that. I will advocate for you.

00;51;18;25 - 00;51;36;12
Crystal
But if if, if it don't have it on your watch, your goal is to get your education. And, but I also want to train you to advocate for yourself and to ask to, for the things that you need and make this place the place you wanted to be, but you also have to use it.

00;51;36;12 - 00;51;37;14
Darice
To do the work. Yeah.

00;51;37;14 - 00;51;39;17
Crystal
To get out of here and go the next step.

00;51;39;17 - 00;52;01;26
Darice
Yeah, that's amazing. And I've, you're the first person I've heard to put it that way, where it's like, yes, it's great that students get involved in protests and so on, but like you said, when they mention what their battles are, pass it on to someone who can sort of help remove those obstacles. But like you said, they still need to pass.

00;52;01;28 - 00;52;02;18
Crystal
Like through here, right?

00;52;02;24 - 00;52;35;03
Darice
Right. They still need to pass and get through school. And, that's amazing. I love how you put it that way. Kind of leading into, you know, I had some questions about your approach with, with how you mentor students because I noticed that several of your words were for, for teaching and mentoring. And, you know, like I told you earlier, everyone I mentioned when I mentioned that you would be one of my guests, they're like, Crystal, everybody loves Crystal.

00;52;35;06 - 00;52;36;02
Darice
And.

00;52;36;04 - 00;53;05;22
Darice
You know, the students love you. And yeah, So I'm wondering, you know, how do you and you've already given me some examples of just what you pull from your own personal experience into how you mentor students. But, you know, are there other experiences that you might have had, like when you were in college that sort of shaped whether they were good or bad, but shapes how you approach mentoring students here at Yale?

00;53;05;26 - 00;53;40;11
Crystal
I mean, I had amazing mentoring and I you know, I sort of talk about my advisor and my mom. And, you know, I had you know, I sought out mentorship and I knew when I had a good mentor and when I had a mediocre one. I had learned to ask for what I need, right? So that I think part of being a mentor, part of being menteed is knowing what you need and being able to ask for it.

00;53;40;18 - 00;53;50;21
Crystal
Right? And and so as a mentor, you know, I had to ask for stuff from my advisor. She wasn't always like, you know.

00;53;50;21 - 00;54;09;11
Crystal
As like, can I have an extension? And she was like no. And I was like but okay. Let me advocate, let me tell why you, like you want me to do my best work? Like, you might want to give me an extension. I'm here to do my best work. I need more time boo. So, you know, like, we would have those, but I had to, like, explain it.

00;54;09;11 - 00;54;10;23
Darice
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

00;54;10;26 - 00;54;36;21
Crystal
Like, it's not like I'm just being. So what I say to, I try to meet my students where they are and that like if I think fundamentally why they are here is to get an education, then my job is to support that. And that means having compassion and empathy and so I often say and I say to my students, What do you need? What do you need to pass this class to do this work?

00;54;36;24 - 00;54;41;00
Crystal
I know that my class might not be your number one priority, but for where it is.

00;54;41;00 - 00;55;12;20
Crystal
In what you need to do to get through Yale, how do I support you in that? And I try to see my students as whole, people that's gotten much easier. I think I thought I could see the full breadth of my students based on my own humanity and the experiences that I had. But in fact, being head of college has made me realize that I didn't really see.

00;55;12;20 - 00;55;37;28
Crystal
Yeah, you know, I see them in the sliver of time and that they're my student in my class. Right. But like, as head of college, I might, oh right, you're somebody's daughter. You're somebody's older sister. You are, you know, working three jobs. You're taking seven classes, you know, whatever it is. And you're trying to have social life.

00;55;37;28 - 00;55;59;14
Crystal
You don't know who you are. Like, in college, I see it all. Yeah. From like their mental health struggles, to like their successes. And I want to celebrate them and I want to, you know, lift them up when they fall down. But it means they're not just a student in my class who, after the semester is over, I might see you again. I might not.

00;55;59;16 - 00;56;21;07
Crystal
I have held that space for you. So I feel like I was I don't want to say winging it, but because I knew the fullness of my own experience, I could hold space for my students based on that, but not based on like what I now know to be their reality, right? It was based on my reality.

00;56;21;09 - 00;56;22;03
Darice
On your reality, yeah.

00;56;22;03 - 00;56;39;24
Crystal
And that worked and it was sustainable and but I think now I'm just like, yeah, this is really important. And to remind my students that the grade isn't the most important thing and it's like, what do you want to get out of this class? It can't be the grade.

00;56;39;25 - 00;56;40;19
Darice
Right, right.

00;56;40;22 - 00;57;11;08
Crystal
And and let me figure it. Help you figure that out. What's the skill set? Is it that you want to become a better writer? You want to learn how to read documents that you want to figure out how do you mobilize this history for social justice and change, right? So that has been, you know, for some students, when they took my long civil rights course in 2015 and they were part of the push for the name change and more resources, they were they were students who were AFAM majors.

00;57;11;08 - 00;57;44;16
Crystal
Who were in long civil rights movement. And they were thinking about, well, how do we strategize? How do we create alliances where the Asian Cultural Center, the Latinx, why is that so difficult? Why the coalitions break down. Like that's what we want to understand. So can you focus on that? You know, you know, they wanted to know, like I often say, you know, my colleague Glenda Gilmore and I were teaching about Pauli Murray before anybody knew that to think about Pauli Murray, because we were both from North Carolina, we were both historians.

00;57;44;21 - 00;57;52;14
Crystal
We'd both been at UNC Chapel Hill. Her advisor was my advisor at high school, and we taught Pauli Murray because we were like, and she was here at Yale.

00;57;52;14 - 00;57;53;25
Darice
Wow.

00;57;53;25 - 00;58;03;17
Crystal
So when the name changes came down, those students from who had long gone wrote to us and said, We want a college to be named after Pauli Murray, right? And it's like.

00;58;03;17 - 00;58;27;23
Crystal
You, like I feel like my job is to give the students what they need. And, you know, so that they got this education and they mobilized it. Right? So I often open my classes and I say, this class can be many things, but it has to be a call to action. And you get to decide what that action is. Maybe it's that I am going to come to class every, I ain't going to miss a single class. Right.

00;58;27;26 - 00;58;49;23
Crystal
And that's what it means to you, right? For some of you is like, this is my moment to think about what are my commitments to racial and gender equality and social justice. Right. And what are you going to do after this class? What how is this knowledge serve you besides a letter grade on your transcript? And you have to think about that and I can help you.

00;58;49;23 - 00;59;01;09
Crystal
And there are times where people are like, Can we make this an education, give it a course listing for education? Because I want it to be seen as part of my training to become a schoolteacher.

00;59;01;11 - 00;59;02;03
Darice
Oh wow.

-- IDK, what is an ed or ex number? --
00;59;02;03 - 00;59;08;13
Crystal
Yeah, I can give it a ED number. And then once I did that, I was like, Well, what? So then I made them. I changed the projects.

00;59;08;13 - 00;59;09;15
Darice
Right.

00;59;09;16 - 00;59;25;08
Crystal
The assignments. You have to write a children's book about Civil Rights or women's rights activists. Here are the guidelines instead of a final paper. You know, as students became more that I want to do more public facing. I changed the assignment to a podcast which Ryan said he helped me with my students.

00;59;25;10 - 00;59;44;08
Crystal
So that, like I try to meet the students where they are. And it was a generation where I had an iPad in the class and you had to do like a story, and that was when the Ferguson stuff was happening and they had to kind of think, How would you report out what's happening on campuses and what's happening in cities around the Ferguson protests?

00;59;44;08 - 00;59;54;15
Crystal
So there are ways where I would I kind of try to gauge where they are. And if you're doing black studies, whatever you're doing is always in the news.

00;59;54;15 - 00;59;55;25
Darice
Yeah. There's always something.

00;59;55;28 - 00;59;58;04
Crystal
Some headline like is it Charleston?

00;59;58;07 - 01;00;04;09
Crystal
The shooting one year I came back. The monuments coming down. And so I did a project on monuments.

01;00;04;09 - 01;00;29;15
Crystal
So I really. So I think that students appreciate that like my course isn't about just consuming knowledge, but how do you want to consume that knowledge and produce new knowledge and mobilize it, whether you're going to Wall Street or you're going to teach in a inner city public school. How is this knowledge going to serve you and change the world? Right?

01;00;29;16 - 01;00;31;04
Darice
That's amazing.

01;00;31;06 - 01;00;49;14
Crystal
And I think my students appreciate that and it makes me feel like, you know. Makes me happy because I feel like I'm a, I'm a scholar activist and like a model for them. And that like, I might not be the one out in the street. I might not be the one telling Wall Street how to do it's DEI.

01;00;49;17 - 01;00;55;16
Crystal
But my students are going to come up in there and they're going to be like, okay look, let me tell you.

01;00;55;18 - 01;01;24;16
Darice
Yes, yes. And you're giving them the tools to go out, to go out into the world and do these things, which is amazing. which is why, you know, it is so important to have someone like you, you know, helping, help, helping them with their obstacles, but, but also being a person of color and a woman of color, to, to show us like that you're, you know, you're modeling what, what they would like to be doing out in the world and that.

01;01;24;20 - 01;01;25;29
Crystal
And optics matter.

01;01;26;00 - 01;01;27;14
Darice
It does. It really does.

01;01;27;16 - 01;01;53;09
Crystal
I remember I had, there was a mentoring program for junior faculty, and I can't remember who initiated, but it was up on Science Hill in one of those houses and I was the first, I was going in and I was one of the first people that got there. And there was a white woman who opened the door. And when I came in, she was like, if you're here to set up the food and the coffee, if you're from that, you can go on to the back and do that. And I was.

01;01;53;09 - 01;01;53;25
Darice
That was here?

01;01;53;27 - 01;02;11;13
Crystal
Yeah it was here and I said, Well, actually, I'm one of the faculty members. I'm here for the thing. And she's like, oh okay, I'm sorry. And I use that as a teach-. I teach critical race theory. I haven't taught in a while, but I remember when that happened that year, I said, okay, I'm going. This is what I want.

01;02;11;15 - 01;02;30;19
Crystal
I want you to think about race. And so I said, I'm going to tell you with this scenario, this thing happened. And I said, I went into that and I said, So what? What what do you make of that? Let's process it now. She's racist. And I was like, That's one way to read it. But what does it tell you about Yale?

01;02;30;19 - 01;02;54;21
Crystal
Like, think like, just like, think for a minute. Why would she make that assumption? And, you know, and then kind of break it down to my, say 90, there was a 90% chance that she would have been right and say because one, she may not be racist, she just might not, she hasn't seen any black professors. Yale does not have a lot of black professors.

01;02;54;21- 01;02;55;21
Darice
Yeah.

01;02;55;23 - 01;03;16;17
Crystal
We have a lot of black people working in dining. And that is where she sees black people. So the assumption was, so I said, you have to think about the context right, what needs or like. So if we focus on her and we say, she's racist, she shouldn't be working here, that actually doesn't change the lay of the land.

01;03;16;17 - 01;03;17;14
Darice
Right.

01;03;17;16 - 01;03;23;09
Crystal
If we acknowledge that she made that assumption because most of the black people are in dining.

01;03;23;13 - 01;03;24;13
Darice
This is what she experienced.

01;03;24;13 - 01;03;45;12
Crystal
And there are no black faculty, then what needs to change? Yale needs to hire more black faculty so that when black people there, black people are recognized at every level as professors, as administrators, as managers. Not just dining and janitorial staff. And I'm not saying those are bad. I wasn't offended. Like I said.

01;03;45;14 - 01;03;59;10
Crystal
My, my grandmother was a domestic. My other grandma is a cafeteria worker. Like, I don't, I don't have shame in that. That is work that is dignified. But if I had shame about it and it was just about her being racist.

01;03;59;12 - 01;04;27;28
Crystal
Then we missed the point about how these things are systemic. And that like where you go in to make the change, right? Like I'll never see that woman again. I don't care about that woman, but I care that Yale is a place where people can't recognize us as professors, as managers. And that that is the work of, like representing, right?

01;04;27;29 - 01;04;36;29
Crystal
It's not just enough to occupy the space. Optics matter, but also getting people to understand why they matter.

01;04;37;04 - 01;04;44;24
Darice
Yes. Yes, exactly. Oh man. I could talk to you for hours and.

01;04;44;26 - 01;04;45;18
Crystal
And I could to.

01;04;45;19 - 01;04;49;09
Darice
I know. I mean, this is really interesting. We'll have to do lunch or something soon.

01;04;49;09 - 01;04;50;15
Crystal
Well, that's easy.

01;04;50;15 - 01;04;52;29
Darice
Yeah, I know, food is a connection, right?

01;04;53;02 - 01;05;03;19
Crystal
I always say to people like I do stop for lunch and so like that is an easy thing to happen. And I should have you at Pierson.

01;05;03;19 - 01;05;04;01
Crystal
I don't know if you've eaten in the colleges yet.

01;05;04;01 - 01;05;10;09
Darice
I have. I have here in there in different college. But yeah, I would love to.

01;05;10;09 - 01;05;28;23
Crystal
You've got to come to Pierson because it is the best college. On campus. I'm going to look at the camera. You all hear that? Pierson nights. So I will. I'll have you over here. And if you're not a fellow of any other college. I would love to have you become part of our community. But if you are a fellow at another college?

01;05;28;64 - 01;05;30;25
Darice
No, I'm not. Actually.

01;05;30;25 - 01;05;32;12
Crystal
Good!

01;05;32;14 - 01;05;42;15
Darice
Okay, That's another thing that I've always been like how? You know, I always, some of my colleagues, I'm like, How do you become a fellow? I don't know. Like, I don't. What's the process?

01;05;42;17 - 01;05;53;08
Crystal
You can ask. You can, or people can ask you but it's like the mystery of like who gets the invitations Who gets it? And, you know, faculty are always automatically invited.

01;05;53;08 - 01;05;54;12
Darice
Okay.

01;05;54;14 - 01;06;07;11
Crystal
And then, you know, some people who are administrators and they they know the world of Yale and were undergraduates here or graduate students. They know that like, I could go to so-and-so.

01;06;07;11 - 01;06;08;08
Darice
And become a fellow.

01;06;08;08 - 01;06;12;09
Crystal
And ask. Right. But it's, you know, and it's not a guarantee.

01;06;12;09 - 01;06;12;19
Darice
Right.

01;06;12;20 - 01;06;22;13
Crystal
But, you know, as a head, I'm always asking people, you want to be a fellow? And you're not supposed to recruit allies because you know. They're in another college.

01;06;22;13 - 01;06;23;23
Darice
Right, right. No, I'm not.

01;06;23;26 - 01;06;26;17
Crystal
There's a whole process. That's why I said, are you in another college?

01;06;26;20 - 01;06;49;03
Darice
I'm not. I'm not. And thank you. I really I'm flattered and thank you for the invitation. I would love to. So thank you. So, you know, like I said, I could talk to you forever, which was really nice. It was nice to connect on that level. And I knew immediately when I saw your bio and you mentioned, you know, and it mentioned North Carolina, I was like, she's like family.

01;06;49;05 - 01;07;01;09
Darice
But but it really because my my parents are still, you know, my dad passed away in 2019. But, you know, they, they are, you know, North Caro-, what is it? North Carolinian? I don't know what.

01;07;01;14 - 01;07;03;12
Crystal
That's it. North Carolinians, yeah.

01;07;03;13 - 01;07;24;25
Darice
At heart. You know what I mean? Like they live it. So what I'd love to do is wrap up by talking about, you know, you do so much. And I almost want to say for some women, you know, not all women, but I think the we tend to we just like take it all on. Right. You're doing the research.

01;07;24;25 - 01;07;30;00
Darice
You're doing you have a family. You're, you're teaching, you're head of college.

01;07;30;02 - 01;07;47;14
Darice
Amazing. Amazing. And it's like, how do you, how do you juggle all of that? And I'm kind of leading into just self-care. Like how, how do you, how do you do it and still maintain that balance and and get done what you know, what you set out to do?

01;07;47;16 - 01;07;57;22
Crystal
It's hard. I'll just start with that. I feel like this is, I'm sorry I'm not looking at the camera, but I'm thinking.

01;07;57;25 - 01;08;01;15
Darice
It's like it's ironic.

01;08;01;17 - 01;08;22;16
Crystal
In the sense that like yesterday when I was at this leadership, like, the question that I asked was like, okay, you're two women and you're leaders. You know, Peter was on the panel, too. And I said, there's a part two for Peter. But like, how what are the challenges of being female leaders? Yeah, and how do you, you're all very busy.

01;08;22;16 - 01;08;30;23
Crystal
Like, how do you manage that work life balance? I mean, I know it's a cliché question. But it's a question.

01;08;30;23 - 01;08;31;08
Darice
It is real though.

01;08;31;08 - 01;08;37;19
Crystal
Maybe balance isn't a real thing. But and I know, Peter, I'm asking you that question because you have to manage it.

01;08;37;21 - 01;09;09;00
Crystal
You know, they gave me some answers, but, you know, you know, one said there's no notes, no such, there's no such thing. You know, the two women said, you know, I kind of spent more time with my kids, but they're wonderful people and, you know, and they love me and they're proud of me. And, you know, and when I did time with them, I gave them 100%, you know, that kind of.

01;09;09;00 - 01;09;16;01
Crystal
Stuff. And, you know, and then I had to think, like, how do I answer that question? And.

01;09;16;03 - 01;09;25;25
Crystal
You know, I you know, balance is, is a kind of like the magical thing. If I could just find it.

01;09;25;26 - 01;09;26;23
Darice
Right, Right.

01;09;26;25 - 01;09;28;14
Darice
Extra hours in the day.

01;09;28;16 - 01;09;50;22
Crystal
Yeah. And so it's like, do I want to give up on that, striving for that? But at the end of the day I'm like, what are my priorities? and, and those can shift, right? So for a very long time my priority was my kids. Like one, I did, I did not want to be the parent whose kids were in daycare to 5:30, 6:30.

01;09;50;22 - 01;10;16;05
Crystal
My kids are going to get picked at 3:00 where I have dinner together every night. That was it wasn't about balance. I was like, That's my priority. It meant that. And teaching was like my next priority and my scholarship didn't always was not always a priority. Right. That like. I don't have seven books, right? But that was a choice.

01;10;16;07 - 01;10;45;26
Crystal
Like, I needed to write a book to get tenure. I want to write more books, but for at least 13 years, when my kids were little, that was deprived and that if I was working towards balance, then I would have struggled to do both of those things and not do any of it well, right? And so I just was like, I'm going to do the best I can as a teacher.

01;10;45;28 - 01;11;11;13
Crystal
And and that meant I was busy all the time. And but I have no regret that, like, you know, as this working woman who has is a career minded that my choices and my commitments have always been about my family. I don't want to be in a commuter marriage that my husband and I made choices and sacrifices.

01;11;11;13 - 01;11;31;13
Crystal
And, you know, he was a spousal hire at UNC Chapel Hill. I was the spousal hire here. It meant giving up tenure and starting all over. But I knew that, like for our family, what was, what was most important, right? And that I, that that would always be the thing and I felt like I could become head of college because my kids are 13 and 18.

01;11;31;19 - 01;11;55;29
Crystal
And that that could be a priority in a way because they don't need me as much as right. And I postpone that for like I could have done. And I said well, my son is a junior and he's we got to get him through his junior year so that he can be ready for college. I can't do it this year. Roll back. Roll back, come next year. You know that, And I need this leave and I need to make a little bit more progress on an article or a book.

01;11;56;01 - 01;12;22;12
Crystal
But like I have been very clear about what's important for me. And so my advice to people about like what is how do you find that balance? It's like, what do you prioritize? What are your commitments? And, you know, say yes to the things you love Because, I mean, I struggle because people are like, you don't say, No. You don't say, No. You need to learn how to say no. Woman don't say no.

01;12;22;12 - 01;12;25;16
Darice
Right. I know that's that's been a common theme, right?

01;12;25;16 - 01;12;28;29
Crystal
Yeah, and so, I'm just Like, well, how do I say yes to the things I love, right?

01;12;29;01 - 01;12;30;02
Darice
That you love. Right.

01;12;30;04 - 01;12;41;07
Crystal
And how do I own those choices? And know that, like, you're giving up something, right? Because if you're constantly working for balance, you don't have to give up anything.

01;12;41;09 - 01;12;41;17
Darice
Right, right.

01;12;41;17 - 01;12;53;05
Crystal
And you do. And you're giving up time with your kids. Are you giving up time on your scholarship or are you giving up time on the work you want to do in the community? And that's okay. Just own that and choose it.

-- IDK, I'm not gonna say? --
01;12;53;05 - 01;13;06;28
Crystal
And the self-care for me is when you with your kids all the time, you need some care. Like, I'm not going to say like you might think it's just because you out here working all day. Like, how you go, you know, Is it a glass of wine at the end of the day? Whatever.

01;13;07;01 - 01;13;08;27
Darice
Yeah, it's wind down time.

01;13;08;29 - 01;13;25;16
Crystal
I like TV. Like, you know, I love to binge some stuff and at the end of the day, it is like a bath and don't like whatever series is going to like.

01;13;25;16 - 01;13;27;09
Darice
Just kind of suck you in for a while.

01;13;27;09 - 01;13;35;26
Crystal
And I love to walk, I love to run, you know, I get sick. And then when I get sick I just am like you have to stop.

01;13;35;26 - 01;14;11;00
Darice
You have to stop, yeah, and take time for yourself. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I wish we could talk longer. You know, I want to. It's like I want to continue the conversation, and I hope. I hope to continue to get to know you. It's been such a pleasure. You know, talking to you today and having having this conversation and getting to hear about your background because, you know, I went through all of you're, you're not all of it, but, you know, I went through your bio and I mean, it's a lot like you've done so much.

01;14;11;01 - 01;14;53;01
Darice
And it's really interesting just to hear who who you are as a, as a person. And I just appreciate you taking the time to share with me today. So I really, we're going to conclude the episode. And again, thank you so much, Crystal, for making the time. and I, you know, you brought up so many wonderful points and I and I think it just to wrap it up, it's, it's so important to keep that dialog open amongst each other, you know, amongst our groups and, and you know, reflect on conversations, like you said, talking to your students about different experiences you've had.

01;14;53;04 - 01;15;16;08
Darice
They jump to a conclusion. But when you really start to think about it and dissect it, there are other issues that that we really have to think about. So I just want to encourage our listeners to do the same thing and, you know, just keep the conversations going, you know? And yes, I, thank you so much, I can't tell you enough how I appreciate it.

01;15;16;11 - 01;15;24;29
Darice
And yeah, I'm going to sign off here. So and, you know, just awesome conversation, Crystal. So thank you so much for coming.

01;15;25;00 - 01;15;27;03
Crystal
You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you.