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Darice
Welcome to Yale College Voices, where we delve into the captivating narratives of individuals shaping the essence of Yale College. And I'm your host. For those of you who don't know me, Darice Corey. And today, we have the privilege of unraveling the profound insights and experiences of a distinguished figure within Yale College and your foresight. So welcome today, Andrew.

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Andrew
Thank you. Thank you for having me.

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Darice
Thank you. Thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to be with me today. I really appreciate it. So, Andrew, I'm just going to read your bio and then we'll just, you know, have a conversation today.

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Andrew
Great. Looking forward to it.

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Darice
Awesome, awesome. So Andrew Forsyth is Associate Dean and Chief of Staff at Yale College. He serves as a Senior Advisor to the dean, supports the dean and engaging with communities inside and outside the college, and coordinates college wide strategic planning. Andrew is a college communications liaison, oversees activities and events for the office of the Dean, and resolves rising issues.

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Darice
Previously at Yale, he worked in what's now the office of the Secretary and Vice President for University Life, led by Kim Goff-Crews, where he supported the creation of the University's Belonging at Yale Framework, Leadership Development Opportunities for Students, collaboration between student life professionals across the university, mental health, wellness and resiliency programs and activities to support the free exchange of ideas on campus.

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Darice
He received his Ph.D. from Yale's Department of Religious Studies, having previously studied in his homeland of Scotland and at Harvard and Cambridge Universities. His book, Common Law in Natural Law in America, from the Puritans to the Legal Realists, was a joint winner of Heidelberg University's Manfred Lautenschlaeger Award. He occasionally teaches at Yale College. His courses include tradition and modernity, the ethics of forgiveness and law, morality and religion.

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Darice
Beyond Yale, Andrew is a Gubernatorial Appointee on the Board of Connecticut Humanities, the state affiliate of the National Endowment for the Humanities, which connects people to the humanities through grants, partnerships and collaborative programs. He is also president of the Elm Shakespeare Company, which brings people together through Shakespeare, with thousands of young people participating each year in programs, tens of thousands of New Haven and beyond.

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Darice
Enjoy these free performances in New Haven's Edgerton Park. As a side note to our listeners, in early 2023, I coauthored a proposal with David Caruso requesting funds to support the kickoff of the podcast. So the Belonging at Yale Initiative granted $2,000 to support Yale College's unit plan implementation for the Yale College Voices Project. So, Andrew, I want to thank you for your contributions to creating the university's Belonging at Yale Framework, because otherwise this podcast might not even exist.

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Darice
So thank you. And again, welcome today. So it's awesome to just have an opportunity to to get to know you more. And here I think years ago, we sort of work together on a committee for I want to say it was during work sink days quite a long time ago. Right?

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Andrew
Yes, that's our engagement platform for, for student organizations. But, it went through various iterations and we've been refining it.

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Darice
Right. And which is now, you know, sort of evolved into campus groups and, but yeah, we collaborated. But we, you know, I've never had an opportunity to really just get to know you. So I'm just really appreciative of having this time with you today. And I'm wondering if you could, we'll start off by, if you could share a little bit more about your time growing up in Scotland.

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Andrew
Sure. Yeah. So I'm from Glasgow in Scotland, and people from Glasgow are called Glaswegians.

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Darice
Okay.

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Andrew
And you say the S in it, you say is kind of a Z sound if you're from Glasgow, so Glazgow rather than Glasgow. Okay. Although you were in the highlands of Scotland, say Glasgow, but people from Glasgow say Glazgow. So it's, you know, it's a big city, it's... if you count the people outside of the formal city limits.

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Andrew
But clearly part of the urban area, it's probably a million, a million and a half people. So it's a large city, largest in Scotland. It's a city that has a very strong sense of itself and has a long history, although it really became a major place in the 19th century with heavy industry, shipbuilding and in heavy engineering, I think locomotive trains, you know, at one point half of the world's trains came from Glasgow or they're their engines did at least.

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Andrew
So one of these places that was a kind of a powerhouse in the 19th century struggled a bit in the 20th century, has kind of reinvented itself as a post-industrial city in some ways. So really concentrating on arts and culture and education. I'm always trying to think of a US equivalent, you know, kind of Pittsburgh comes to mind in some ways.

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Andrew
So again, a place with a strong sense of self, that built a lot of things that no is kind of post building and has really tried to lean on their culture and education as being as hopefully not just filling that gap, but being a part of a new identity. So it was a good place to grow up.

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Andrew
I grew up in the city itself in, I suppose it would be the kind of Victorian ring, and there was commuter rail that connected up and those parts of the city to the center. And so just about a ten minute train journey or bus journey into the center of city center. Yeah.

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Darice
Interesting. And like, what inspired your academic journey, Like when you as you, as you were growing up there?

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Andrew
Yeah, it's a difficult question. I say I was trying to in advance of this, I was trying to give some thought to it. And I think in some ways I was quite a lazy student in kind of primary and secondary school. And so that's that, you know, elementary school and high school. I think I was I had some natural talent, but I don't think I pushed myself hugely.

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Andrew
And my parents are certainly very supportive of studying and I enjoyed school to the most part. They were always they always gave the impression that it would be natural for me to go to college. And so, you know, I kind of grew up in a household that valued learning. It kind of seems quaint with all of the information we have in our fingertips now.

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Andrew
But, you know, my my dad growing up would often with big old sets of encyclopedias and if someone would mention a topic and he didn't know the answer to it, you know, he would go for one of those reference books and be like, Let's look that up. And and almost to a comic extent, you know, it's kind of they teased him about it slightly, but also it meant that, you know, it was a place where, you know, both my parents were kind of curious, interested, wanted to know more.

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Andrew
And so I suppose the educational journey probably came from that. I should also say both my parents are teachers, so my mum taught in a primary school, so elementary school and my dad in high school, but P.E. (Physical Education) so maybe not the most, uh, not the most academic of subjects, but as a, as a human being, he was someone who really valued learning new things of all kinds.

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Andrew
So I suppose if I inherited anything or grew up with a pattern of what that might look like, it was because of that.

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Darice
that's amazing. And it's funny when you mention the encyclopedias, like I grew up during a time when we had the giant sets of encyclopedias. And what's interesting about that, I wonder, you know, just mentioning encyclopedias, if students today would have any clue what we were referring to. Like you literally had to figure out the topic and you know, and dig through the book to figure out.

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Andrew
You know, there are interesting sorting skills doing that. I mean, I've read some studies, so I think the Poorvu Center has talked about this a bit as well, The Teaching and Learning Center, about what's lost if students aren't going into the stacks and picking up books. Yeah. And because, you know, because books on similar subjects will be located nearby.

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Andrew
And so I certainly, you know, had the experience of libraries growing up and in college and things of going looking for a particular book and then you happened to glance your eyes over the shelf and you saw something, there's something that's related, but not something that you would have grasped. And so in a way, I think encyclopedias had that as well, that you'd be looking up a subject and then you'd happened to see some other topic.

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Darice
Exactly.

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Andrew
You'd look at it. SO, and you find appreciation of it.

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Darice
Yeah, it's really interesting. yeah, it brings back memories of just the finding a book, you know, and going through all the stacks and looking through the. You know what? Growing up, I had to go through the card catalogs, you know? Yes. I was curious, like in terms of your upbringing, it sounds like it definitely influence your perspective on education and scholarship.

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Darice
And, I'm just wondering how that carried over into, you know, your professional pursuits. So if you could tell us a little more about that.

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Andrew
Yeah. I've never been particularly planned out. I've kind of taken advantage of opportunities that have arisen and hopefully been in, you know, good situations that allow a next step. So I never had a great plan. I after high school, I went to the University of Glasgow, so one of the universities in Glasgow and originally a medieval foundation.

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Andrew
So 15th century, long history, although again, most of the buildings are actually from the 19th century. And when you had this big expansion in Glasgow and that was very much the done thing, you know, if you were a smart person in the west coast of Scotland, you went to your local university. And so I, um, I mostly commuted.

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Andrew
There was one year where I stayed on campus, but most of the time I was going in from my part of the city to where the university was. And, you know, I just explored subjects I was interested in again, without any great forward direction, well done by me. Scottish universities are as many other universities in the English speaking world outside of the US tend to be more focused early on.

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Andrew
And so it's not quite the liberal arts education that our students at Yale College get. It was more you had a shorter list of subjects that you were exploring, so you had to make choices as a 16 year old, 17 year old, 18 year old to kind of what general direction you were going in. And I kind of fell into the humanities kind of broadly humanistic like social science direction and just happened to pick up subjects that I enjoyed and explored.

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Andrew
And I suppose through college I realized that maybe I'd add more of an interest than other students or more of an academic interest. You know, plenty of smart people who are not academically inclined, you know, they have other pursuits. And also I think I probably learned some of their habits, maybe developed some self-discipline, probably just grew up in many ways, too, or in order to overcome some of that maybe natural laziness that I was talking about.

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Andrew
In my elementary and high school days. So I think I, you know, I became more of a, more of the person I am today during that period, just in terms of building habits and kind of good practices and really honing in what I was interested in.

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Darice
Interesting. So I'm curious, you know, if when you think of teaching courses here at your college and interacting with students and are there do you see sort of parts of yourself in students that that you teach in or how do you, um, you know, how do you mentor students when, or do you see things that you experienced back then that, you know, you'd like to help students along?

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Andrew
Right. It's a good question. So I think I presume and I expect that our students get a variety of perspectives and approaches. And so I don't try to overthink my teaching. You know, I try and be organized and careful, and I have a particular way that I teach and I'm very comfortable, I think, with thinking that there'll be plural approaches, there'll be people who teach in very different ways that will be very successful.

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Andrew
I tend to teach in a seminar setting. And so what I'm really interested in is everyone contributing. And that can be difficult because they'll be people who are more naturally and you know, by by nature or by experience will be better positioned to contribute verbally. So I try and mix in a variety of different approaches. So, you know, I will ask a question and then say, you know, let's spend 2 minutes for you to come up with that answer.

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Andrew
So some people will write it down and others will just look into space or, but give that pause, because often you're waiting for contributions that, you know, would have come if you're just giving people a bit of space to do it. I actually am looking up at a with a board in the studio just now. I often do board work.

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Andrew
And so I'll begin writing something and I'll make some kind of schematic about it that if I look back at it afterwards, it would be terrible. I'm sure. But in the moment feels as if it's worthwhile for you. You're charting connections between different points, and I do sometimes do what gets called kind of Socratic style or semi Socratic.

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Andrew
So I ask a open ended question and then I will call in people to answer. Yeah. And so I there's research goes back and forward about how helpful that is to people.

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Darice
Right, right. The pressure.

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Andrew
The pressure, Yeah. So I do, well I try and minimize the pressure by going round the room, so I expect that you're in an average seminar session. I expect everyone to speak. I want everyone to speak multiple times. That's the goal. And so sometimes if it's something that's factual, if it's something that they should know just by doing the reading, I will go around the room and, you know, say, you know, Richard, give me the answer to this question.

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Andrew
Alice, give me the answer to this question. Jennifer, give me the answer to this question and go around the room so that people, which probably does still make people nervous because they know they're coming up. But on the other hand, it means that everyone, everyone here is their own voice in the room and everyone expects that they're going to talk multiple times.

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Andrew
And so they just go into their default of I'm a person who talks a lot in a class or I'm a person who doesn't talk a lot in the class. So I'm always experimenting with it. And, you know, I think different students get different things from it. Maybe this is a self-justification, but I've told myself that those people for whom this is more difficult is still a useful skill to learn.

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Andrew
So it might be uncomfortable, but it might be a worthwhile type of discomfort to know that there are situations in life where you might just be called upon to say something.

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Darice
Yeah, where it's sort of like, you know, you have to practice it at some point, right? Even if you're shy. Like you said, it's good to at least feel like you have a voice because then there are times where if you, if you're introverted, you may never participate if, if you don't have that opportunity. So, I was curious what, what drew you to pursue your PhD?

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Darice
Sort of taking a turn here?

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Andrew
Yeah, it's a good question. So my pieces from Yale's Religious Studies department and I suppose I can take the steps back, so in college, one of the areas where I ended up studying was the study of religion. And, you know, for a variety of different reasons. But I think probably the combination of an ethical interest to thinking that here are ideas that motivate people to act in particular ways and to have a sense of the purpose of their life and their relationships tied with history.

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Andrew
So it's that connection I think, between being able to chart a history, see change over time and see how very contingent things end up being very important or seemingly important things disappear. And to tie that to this, as I said, this sense of ethical or moral weight. So I got interested in that in college and I ended up getting a fellowship to study in the US, and so did a two year degree at Harvard in their divinity school, which is like Yale's divinity school in many ways, although even more kind of pluralistic and involves, you know, a number of have as faculty and students of many religious traditions and none.

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Andrew
And so that was a great place to be. I actually was there thinking that I was just kind of scratching an itch of knowledge and that I was going to go off and do something more vocational. And so ended up back in the UK and but found that I was still I still had that itch. And so I wanted to pursue more and more scholarship and I knew of certain faculty at Yale and, you know, also very straightforwardly at Harvard, I met my now husband.

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Darice
Oh, that's great!

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Andrew
And so there was some negotiation about where would we end up if we were ever going to not be in a long distance relationship and hopefully a long term relationship. And so it ended up being that I had my best offers as it were, ended up being from Yale and from Chicago. And Josh is my husband and he had both.

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Andrew
He'd been a Yale undergrad. He's actually from Connecticut and had gone to Yale and had lived in Chicago. And so slightly by chance, slightly by design, the options ended up being places that he would happy, he'd be happy to live. And Yale was my slightly preferred option, but he ended up being very happy by coming back to New Haven.

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Andrew
As an adult who'd been away for, I think ten years by that point. So it was nice for, you know, nice to have that return.

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Darice
Oh, that's great, and it all came together, right?

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Andrew
It did. So that's again, part of this book, the mixture of the planned and the unplanned, I'm trying to be thoughtful about next steps. But I knew there were all sorts of contingent things which fell into place to mean I ended up at Yale.

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Darice
Oh, that's so neat. Thank you for sharing that. And so I'm curious, you know, comparing your experiences studying abroad to coming to Yale, like how did that sort of did it change like your personal development or, you know, affect how you approach teaching later on?

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Andrew
Yeah, I think that, you know, I think we're very proud of our liberal arts education at Yale and in many U.S. institutions, and it's something that I've come very much to value. I do think in Britain you were made quite early on to make certain decisions, and I suppose if I was I over psychoanalyzing myself, I suppose I through my education, I managed to delay decisions to explore new areas and new interests.

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Andrew
And so I value that in the liberal arts, not that we want our students to be delaying decisions right. We want them to have some room to explore and find out new things. And so I've really come to embrace that and to understand the purpose of bringing together students with so much potential so that they can explore issues together and with teachers, with faculty, with staff, and hopefully be changed in the experience.

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Andrew
So I'm a big believer, I suppose, in the change that education can bring. Yeah, know that we lose our histories beforehand, but then we get to maybe take a bit of a step back from them, see ourself, pursue interests that we never knew that we had and that to a place like Yale is wonderful and just exposing people both to the range of knowledge, but just to the amazing range of people that perhaps they've they would never have experienced before they were here.

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Andrew
So I suppose in myself, I've learned to really appreciate that aspect of, you know, U.S. higher education, although it's, I mean, it's very expensive. I mean, I always reflect and, you know, how privileged I am to both have had a PhD at Yale, which received unbelievable levels of financial and other support and now to work at Yale that it's not a model, that it's not a model.

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Andrew
That can work everywhere just because it's so, it's so resource intensive. And that's, that's part of the wonder of it, but also makes it, I think we have to know that and think how to make the best societal use of all that investment that we're putting into people.

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Darice
Yeah, that's amazing. And, and even, you know, working here at Yale, when you mentioned experiencing or meeting people that you probably never would have interacted with or been able to work with before and I think that's probably one of my favorite things about being here is just, you know, I anywhere else, I wouldn't have met someone like you, you know what I mean?

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Darice
And, you know, it's a wonderful experience to be able to you even just doing this podcast and talking to different people who are part of our staff and from so many different backgrounds and, you know, where they grew up and educational pursuits and, you know, all of these different things that I never would have had an opportunity to, to come across.

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Darice
Um.

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Andrew
And I'm all I'm always struck by, I mean people like you Darice who are in roles that exist in other types of institution or industry but have chosen to be at Yale. So whether it's IT or I think of this with our lawyers and the Office of General Counsel, that there's often something very interesting about them because you and they have made a choice that this is the type of place that you want to bring your skills and energy to, when there are, you know, there's many, many different contexts that you could be doing your work.

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Darice
Like corporate role and all that kind of stuff.

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Andrew
Right. So even within, you know, even within, even within and I think particularly beyond the obvious work directly with students or in kind of academic affairs, I think you find the staff at Yale tend to be very interesting because they've made those choices.

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Darice
Yeah, absolutely. Because I think I mean, I've years ago I worked in more of a corporate environment and then I sort of a couple of times I flip flop between corporate and nonprofit. And I just found nonprofit work to be more rewarding, you know, just that feeling of contributing to, you know, an overarching mission and really seeing what, you know, what my work, you know, how that feeds into that mission.

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Darice
I think, you know, in a corporate environment, you just it's different. You know, it's just very different. And the goals are different, you know, where yeah, I have always just enjoyed working in nonprofit and also, you know, educational or higher ed industry. And it's, it's something that at least for me, it's, you know, at the end of the day, I could see where I, you know, what my work contributes to, you know, and that I think that's been the driving force all these years.

00;24;21;26 - 00;24;39;17
Darice
And plus Yale is a great place to work. So But I'm wondering if you could, we'll take a kind of another turn. I mentioned earlier that you authored a book, Common Law and Natural Law in America, and I was curious, like, what was the inspiration behind the book?

00;24;39;17 - 00;25;09;06
Andrew
Yeah, so it's based on my PhD, So it's partly, you know, the fruits of my interests. And I ended up, as I mentioned earlier, kind of interested both in straightforwardly religious sources but also and legal and moral sources. And one way to see that in action is to look at, you know, on the field or in case studies, how those related over time in particular places.

00;25;09;08 - 00;25;37;24
Andrew
And so common law is just the term that we use for law that gets built up through cases. So you might, there's a broader sense that all law in most of English speaking world is common law. But there's also a narrower sense that it's different from statutory law, let's say that or the Constitution. It's the kind of bread and butter, criminal tort, things that states deal with where they're trying to make decisions.

00;25;37;24 - 00;26;15;22
Andrew
And so you have law that builds up that kind of accretes over time and the history is important. It build, It's built in precedent. And alongside that natural law is this term, it's kind of a controversial term. It means different things in different moments, but you have the sense of there being universal value when, you know, the declaration talks about intrinsic rights or in the 20th century, you get the rise of kind of human rights discourse, then that's part of this broad, broad sense that law should have something to do with morality.

00;26;15;22 - 00;26;36;09
Andrew
That law is not just what we say it is, but it has some kind of for law truly to exist. It needs to be connected to value. And so the book really just traces how that how these two things have been either held together or rejected. And over time it's slightly transatlantic, but it ended up like me, I suppose, mostly ending up in the United States.

00;26;36;09 - 00;27;05;27
Andrew
And so it's fun because it, you know, it goes from kind of colonial beginnings and all of the complexity there into the through the 18th century, into the 19th century, into the early 20th century. I kind of stop before I'm kind of at this low point for the natural law regime. And then actually after the Second World War, you have a bit of a return to interest, and particularly with, as I said, the rise of kind of discussion around human rights and universals.

00;27;06;00 - 00;27;30;17
Andrew
So yeah, it was a fun it was a fun project to do. I was glad that I was able to take what had been written for a particular purpose for a PhD and turn it into something a bit more, you know, a bit more readable, a bit more narrative. I worked with a very good editor to create the book, so that was a nice, nice project to finish up as I was kind of transitioning from being educated at Yale to being a staff member at Yale.

00;27;30;17 - 00;27;37;25
Darice
Yeah, Yeah, that's awesome. and what was it like to receive the recognition in the.

00;27;37;27 - 00;28;03;04
Andrew
Yes, this, this award from Heidelberg. So it was lovely. And unfortunately, the nice thing about that award is that they bring you to Germany and Heidelberg is this famous university town. You know, it's the student prince. There's an operetta and things like there's this famous, it's this famous, you know, kind of symbol of a certain type of German speaking education.

00;28;03;04 - 00;28;19;09
Andrew
So it's a, it's a famed university. And they had this whole trip planned out and then COVID hit. And so I didn't actually get to go over to participate. I thought years afterwards they would bring back the people who won the prize in my particular year. But it didn't happen so, I just had to submit.

00;28;19;09 - 00;28;28;17
Andrew
I think a, I had to submit a little essay and photograph rather than really participate in the activities. So, very nice to be it. Always nice to be recognized.

00;28;28;22 - 00;28;29;13
Darice
Yes, Absolutely.

00;28;29;16 - 00;28;53;18
Andrew
And, you know, I think particularly if you're in the academic world, but I'm sure it's true in different other fields of inquiry and work, there's sometimes a very narrow set of information you're working with or a narrow group of people who are your immediate audience. So anything that brings slightly broader recognition, anything that forces you to talk in slightly broader terms.

00;28;53;21 - 00;28;57;05
Andrew
And I always welcome at least.

00;28;57;05 - 00;29;14;15
Darice
Yeah, that's amazing. And how do you pull that into like your current role, like just in terms of balancing all of that, you know, your academic pursuits along with your role as Associate Dean and Chief of Staff at Yale College. Like how do you balance those?

00;29;14;17 - 00;29;45;09
Andrew
Well, I mean, I say honestly, I'm purely in administration these days, so I enjoy teaching when I have the opportunity to do it. And I try and keep up some reading in my world. But I'm not, I'm not a productive scholar. Maybe at some point there'll be a shift that allows me to focus there more. I will say I've enjoyed and it's been slightly unexpected how much time I get to spend on topics that I have an academic interest in.

00;29;45;12 - 00;30;15;19
Andrew
And I suppose that's the background in, as I said, kind of ethics or one of my interests, and this connects to the lots a certain extent, is that is in how, um, how institutions work, how fair institutions work, and the purposes of education and the practices that we build to support flourishing communities. And, you know, at different levels of abstraction or specification that comes up in my work almost every day.

00;30;15;19 - 00;30;35;21
Andrew
And so I feel like even though it's not a clear academic use of that background work, I think something of my thinking has been formed by just thinking about how do we hope, what does a good institution look like, What are the practices that we want to put in place in order for people to flourish and have a sense of community?

00;30;35;21 - 00;31;01;23
Andrew
And so that's been a nice surprise in a way that I, you know, my spouse sometimes reminds me of that, he says, you know, he'll say to you, I'll be talking over something at the end of the day, and he'll make the connection, saying you know wasn't that a topic that you were interested in five years ago when you were thinking about it through an academic lens, and now you're trying to put that in practice in terms of just that very problem solving type thing that comes up in your college all the time.

00;31;01;23 - 00;31;15;18
Andrew
So it has been a transition. I've enjoyed it, I think I have been well suited to it. Some people are, some people aren't, I think of, but it's been nice to be able to carry over some of those at least broad interests or questions into the role as well.

00;31;15;20 - 00;31;37;20
Darice
That's awesome and so I'm curious, like if you don't mind sharing, like what are some of the you know, I mentioned your position as is Associate Dean and Chief of Staff, if you don't mind sharing, like some of the maybe even challenges that you've faced over the years in your in your role.

00;31;37;23 - 00;32;01;25
Andrew
So I'm fairly new in this role. So I started around the same time as Dean Berkeley's Lewis started. So I would say, you know, my first year, I'm in my second year and I my first year was really just learning a lot from those around me. And we have in the college, we have staff who have deep experience some in positions or similar positions over a decade, multiple decades.

00;32;01;25 - 00;32;32;26
Andrew
And so just, you know, trying to really make the most of kind of soaking in their knowledge and expertise was that was the beginning. And I think change is, I enjoy change in many ways, but change can be difficult. And I was both conscious of how I was experiencing change and also because mine was a new position, I was very conscious about how did my position potentially change others positions or their perception of their role.

00;32;32;28 - 00;32;54;16
Andrew
Right. And so, you know, I think I tried to be, I tried to be sensitive to that and recognize that I might be a disruptive force again, even as I also was feeling this sense of this is a you know, I'm in a moment of change. I need to really learn from other people. So that was, you know, I find that valuable.

00;32;54;16 - 00;33;24;17
Andrew
I hope I'm, I probably now have a better sense of the ways that I can act in the role to support people so that, you know, they're not fearing my involvement. I suppose my philosophy, the job has always been that I am trying to provide additional capacity to people. So I have some projects that I'm fully responsible for, but a lot of the times I'm involved is just to be an extra pair of hands or to take something off someone's plate or an issue arises and it doesn't really fall into someone else's area.

00;33;24;17 - 00;33;44;23
Andrew
And so I kind of end up being the person who can step up and do it. So that's a real privilege because it means I get to see across the college and but as I said, I also try and make sure that I'm not stepping on people's toes, or I sometimes say I hope I'm, if I step on toes, I hope I'm doing it deliberately.

00;33;45;18 - 00;33;46;01
Darice
Yeah. Right, right.

00;33;46;01 - 00;33;50;28
Andrew
Sometimes you need to step in people's toes, but I don't want to inadvertently step in someone's toes so.

00;33;50;28 - 00;34;13;07
Darice
Got it so yeah and I mean there had to be a challenge, like you said changes difficult for for some. Like what, what were some of the things that you sort of pulled from your education that kind of helped you along in that, in that process?

00;34;13;10 - 00;34;38;14
Andrew
Well I suppose from education, a certain ability to detach from the issue at hand, to be able to take a step back, to analyze it. I'm quite an analytic person. I kind of, my brain works sometimes by dividing things up into little chunks and I always have to make sure that I don't take that too far. And like I talked to people who are the opposite but want to bring together everything.

00;34;38;15 - 00;35;02;26
Andrew
And I think that's a nice dynamic to have with colleagues and I can see that in them and hopefully they see in me the ability to line out or determine specific things. So being able to take a view on a subject with a certain level of detachment, while, I still hope a sensitivity to the people involved I think has been useful.

00;35;02;29 - 00;35;30;27
Andrew
And my job before my current one, as you mentioned, was in what's now called the Office of the Secretary and Vice President for University Life. And Kim Goff-Crews is the University Secretary and Vice President and I learned a lot from observing her and she and I, to much lesser extent, were often on the receiving end of people being upset by issues, certain grievances coming up.

00;35;30;29 - 00;35;54;29
Andrew
And, you know, I think just by seeing how she handled that situation, I could tell that even though things could be hurtful, she didn't take them personally. If you're in a position of leadership, then sometimes you are just the end start of people's legitimate or illegitimate grievances. And so I suppose I should try this more of my personal life, at least in my work life.

00;35;54;29 - 00;36;11;08
Andrew
I think I've got a good sense of sometimes people are angry about things and it's not because of me and that I can  recognize that. And again, try and be helpful to them, even if they are not engaging with me in the way that I might necessarily.

00;36;11;11 - 00;36;11;24
Darice
Yeah.

00;36;11;27 - 00;36;12;10
Andrew
Wished that they did.

00;36;12;10 - 00;36;12;21
Darice
Preferred yeah.

00;36;12;21 - 00;36;33;20
Andrew
So I suppose that's all. Both of those examples really are about can you take a breath, can you take a step back, Can you look at a subject and imagine yourself either in the shoes of someone else and why they might be frustrated or angry, or to put an issue in a different pose in a different way that brings some clarity so that there can be conversation and decision.

00;36;33;26 - 00;37;06;00
Darice
Yeah, and I'm glad. I'm glad you brought up that point, because we all kind of go through that same situation where you have to take a step back or not react immediately. Right? And imagine yourself in the other person's shoes, but also you don't necessarily know the, you know, emotion or whatever is coming across is coming from, you know, like it may not even have to do with you.

00;37;06;03 - 00;37;37;12
Darice
But whatever other situation is going on, you know, in that person's life or, you know, personal life or professional life. And I'm curious like, you know, you mentioned trying to do that, but that must have been difficult, like you said, working in with Kim Goff-Crews and when you hear I'm assuming you hear like a lot of complaints, you know, or you sort of get the negative side more than the positive.

00;37;37;12 - 00;37;43;15
Darice
So how did you work through that? Like, did it become exhausting or was it.

00;37;43;17 - 00;38;10;08
Andrew
You know, I think there's a, there was a balance of work and there were some very exciting collaborative projects where you were bringing together people who were energized around a topic. And so I suppose one strategy, if it was a strategy, was just to balance and be able to balance days and weeks and months with the types of work that you could do so that you were both responding to real needs and perhaps things that could be experienced as negative.

00;38;10;08 - 00;38;38;08
Andrew
But you were also having these opportunities to create new things, and that, that was one of the fun things about that office was there was Yale has, you know, it's kind of an odd role in some ways. And Yale, over in the 20th century at least, has used that kind of secretary role of often as a place to give special projects to, or to hold together work that needs to happen across the university but is not owned by one part of the university.

00;38;38;10 - 00;39;08;24
Andrew
And so it meant that, again, you saw a wide breadth of people and interests and the Divinity School is not the medical school and undergrads have different expectations than graduate students. And so that was I find that energing, energizing. And it could have perhaps been overwhelming. But it was nice seeing that you saw that kind of pluralism of Yale in action, just even even in that context, through a particular. Every topic, there would be ten different opinions and ten different sets of interests in it.

00;39;08;24 - 00;39;46;16
Andrew
And another nice thing about it just was that we were a small, small team so we kind of had the sense of something of a startup culture or kind of entrepreneurial culture that we didn't have clearly defined. We're always trying to define our job roles, but they were always overlapping or always multiple people involved. And so once I got to know my team there and we grew and changed while I was there, but that was nice because you had it was just our usual habit and pattern to be responding to new things and working out who should be involved in the conversations and knowing that you could rely on people in that team.

00;39;46;16 - 00;39;48;07
Andrew
So I gained a lot from that.

00;39;48;09 - 00;39;52;17
Darice
Oh that's awesome. And how did that carry over into your current role?

00;39;52;19 - 00;40;26;04
Andrew
Yeah, I mean, I hopefully have taken with that the idea that collaboration can be wonderful and that also needs, you know, kind of guardrails around clarity. And I think that if you're, if you are painting or drawing up in that, you know, board I was talking about earlier, things are in productive tension that I think at Yale, we are a place that's highly consultative and collaborative and that sometimes that means that there can be frustrations around who makes a decision.

00;40;26;04 - 00;41;09;19
Andrew
When does a decision get made? And, you know, hopefully in what I do and hopefully as a partner and team member, I can help others make those in a productive tension so that we are listening carefully to each other while also deciding when, you know a suitable timeline and a suitable decision maker for those issues. So I think I brought that sense of that sense with me, also in a very personal level, that Secretary's office, very few people or offices directly report to that office and so it meant that the power of that office and of Kim Goff-Crews is a kind of convening power.

00;41;09;21 - 00;41;34;10
Andrew
So it's pulling people together, it's helping them see commonality, It's maybe providing some additional resources or capacity rather than being able to tell people what to do. And, you know, in my current role, as I said, a lot of what I do is kind of help, help with certain issues or step in mostly with people who do not have any kind of reporting relationship to me.

00;41;34;10 - 00;41;52;21
Andrew
So it's again, a similar mindset. It's how do you motivate people to identify together and pursue goals And for me to be useful, to genuinely useful to people rather than be a hindrance rather than be getting in the way or stepping on toes when I don't mean to.

00;41;52;25 - 00;42;21;28
Darice
Yeah, you know, as you were talking or as you're speaking, I it reminded me of, you know as you know I went through the Emerge program and one of the topics that came up, you know in terms of, you know, you know, key characteristics of a great leader is not necessarily telling people what to do, but helping remove obstacles so that people can do what they, you know, do their jobs or do what they need to do.

00;42;21;28 - 00;42;47;03
Darice
So, so that's awesome. I'm taking another turn because I was really surprised at your involvement with the Elm Shakespeare Company and also the Connecticut Humanities and so I wanted to ask about, you know, what motivated you or was it, was it an interest in Shakespeare that motivated you to become involved with the Elm Shakespeare Company?

00;42;47;07 - 00;43;21;12
Andrew
A very amateur interest. Really, I got involved because my colleague in the secretary's office, Heather Calabrese, who many people will know on campus and who runs a lot of the university traditions and including commencement. I spoke with with her maybe a year into my job in the secretary's office. And I said, you know, and I feel sufficiently established in New Haven as a non-student that I want to get more involved with local not-for-profits.

00;43;21;15 - 00;43;40;09
Andrew
And Heather, before she was at the university, had been very much involved with United Way. I think a staff person the United Way. I think she's now involved on the kind of board side in the Yale campaign side. And but she had been a staff member, a CEO type and so has a very good knowledge of the not for profit landscape in New Haven.

00;43;40;11 - 00;44;00;05
Andrew
And so I just you know, I remember we had lunch and she kind of talked over areas where she thought I might be able to contribute and where my interests lined up. And one of those ended up being Shakespeare. And so I got involved in the board and, you know, have they've kept me there and, you know, serving as an officer.

00;44;00;09 - 00;44;30;29
Andrew
And so that's been fascinating because we've really grown as a company, even in the time that I've been involved. And it initially was really solely providing a three part performance. And there always had been education, but it had been around that performance. And now there I think over and you know, there are a thousand students in kind of Greater New Haven who are involved through school partnerships, residencies, camps.

00;44;31;02 - 00;44;58;28
Andrew
And so it's a huge educational effort as well as the kind of flagship performance which many people see. And I think in our big year we get about 30,000 people from New Haven and beyond to come to the part performance. So it's a way for me to be involved in the life of the city as well as, you know, there are some university connections as there are going to be in New Haven as a college town in some ways.

00;44;58;28 - 00;45;08;04
Andrew
I mean, it has multiple universities and but it also is a nice way for me to get to know folks and to be involved in the life of the city.

00;45;08;06 - 00;45;25;18
Darice
that's amazing. So my next question was going to be, you know, a memorable experience with the Elm Shakespeare company. But I mean, I can only imagine the, like you said, 30,000, and I've been to Edgerton Park. So I'm trying to visualize, like, what that must be like?

00;45;25;18 - 00;45;34;06
Andrew
Not in one night. Not in one night. That's over the over the 20 nights or whatever that happens that it, but it is great. Yeah, I know that's great. And.

00;45;34;06 - 00;45;34;20
Darice
It's a beautiful park.

00;45;34;20 - 00;45;36;12
Andrew
It's a beautiful park.

00;45;36;12 - 00;45;36;22
Darice
For like a location, yeah.

00;45;36;24 - 00;45;53;06
Andrew
And it's nice for people to gather there and, you know, they bring their, you know, their rugs to put on the ground or foldable beach chairs, whatever to come. And often people bring some kind of picnic to watch a performance. And if the weather cooperates, it can be a magical summer experience.

00;45;53;06 - 00;46;03;02
Darice
Yeah absolutely, that's amazing. Are there, do you pick or do they pick like a specific Shakespeare play to.

00;46;03;05 - 00;46;08;18
Andrew
Yeah. Yes. It differs every year. I think we're yet to make our announcement for this year. So I will hold off.

00;46;08;21 - 00;46;09;22
Darice
Okay, I was about to ask.

00;46;09;25 - 00;46;20;07
Andrew
We've had a series of let me hint as we've had a series of the kind of lighter comedies. And I think there's going to be a big turn towards the dramatic and tragic. So that will be an interesting, interesting move.

00;46;20;12 - 00;46;22;28
Darice
Interesting. What was last year's, for example, or do you remember what last year was.

00;46;22;28 - 00;46;24;29
Andrew
Yeah, it was Merry Wives of Windsor.

00;46;25;02 - 00;46;26;14
Darice
Merry Wives of. I don't think I've read that one.

00;46;26;14 - 00;46;44;00
Andrew
Which is slightly less well known. So it's kind of a fun one to do. But often they're, you know, I think the ones that you get most people for are A Midsummer Night's Dream. And we've had 12th Night and, you know, really ones that people enjoy and that work in the environment.

00;46;44;02 - 00;47;31;24
Darice
Right. I love organizations like that because, you know, when I was in high school, that was one of my favorite parts of the classes I had to take was Shakespeare. And I always enjoyed interpretation, you know, of of the the language and the plays and, you know, the scenes and things like that. But it's awesome that the organization, you know, feeds that curiosity for students because, you know, if you're if you've never been introduced to it, it may be difficult to, to understand or, you know, for, for, for those who just never had access or or someone to, you know, get them excited about it.

00;47;31;24 - 00;47;34;03
Darice
And so that must be really rewarding.

00;47;34;03 - 00;47;59;13
Andrew
Yeah. You know, and I really credit the staff members who are doing the education work that, you know, they're very sophisticated pedagogies of how to involve students. And, you know, it's not, there's no desire to present Shakespeare in a particular way. It's to give people voices, to have people lean into self-expression and knowledge of themself and knowledge of others through use of these kind of classic texts.

00;47;59;17 - 00;48;28;19
Andrew
So in one sense, you know, I, I like Shakespeare, I enjoy Shakespeare. But, you know, you could substitute another canonical set of writing to do something similar with. I think because Shakespeare continues to play a role in our high school curriculums and other things, then it's a great way to give energy and excitement and to open up a world that perhaps students are getting in the classroom, but they get to see differently if they're actually made to animate the words and see themselves in it.

00;48;28;26 - 00;48;55;02
Darice
That's amazing. That was actually going to be my next question is just how it contributes to building community and inclusivity amongst students. And like you said, how, how do you see arts in terms of, you know, sort of building that inclusion and making students feel like it's another way to express themselves and get involved?

00;48;55;05 - 00;49;27;10
Andrew
Yeah. Well, I mean, think your put your finger on it that one of the primary ways is by giving people a framework to channel energy and self-expression. I think it also an opportunity to experience things that you wouldn't otherwise experience. So I think there's we, I mentioned kind of constructive tensions earlier. I suppose a constructive tension is always between wanting to represent and include and also in constructive tension, how to challenge and expose difference.

00;49;27;11 - 00;49;50;21
Andrew
And so you don't you want both of those things. You want students to be exploring worlds that they've not explored before, but also meeting themselves in new ways and understanding the, the folks around them in new ways because of that connection. So that to me, that's the ideal and I suppose that's my educational ideal as well, that we, we see and experience things that are completely outside of our, our knowledge.

00;49;50;21 - 00;50;10;14
Andrew
But somehow in doing so, we can reflect on ourself and, and be strengthened in that even as even as there's also moments where we want to see kind of full representation and inclusion. As a child I was very I just you have me thinking about childhood and encyclopedias and things that I was fascinated by ancient Egypt.

00;50;10;16 - 00;50;30;24
Andrew
And, you know, my mother tells stories of my, her mother, my grandmother reading out, you know, as a five year old, reading the texts to me that were full of very obscure terminology. And her, you know, my grandma looking at my mother and saying, why is he reading this stuff but or having this stuff read to him.

00;50;30;27 - 00;50;54;17
Andrew
But I think that was part, you know, part of my interest is in worlds that I have not explored or mindsets that I have not known. And that, again, whether through Shakespeare or through education, through performance or reading, and then that can be a way to experience worlds that are not our own worlds. And hopefully, as I said, be we're opened and broadened by, by that pursuit.

00;50;54;20 - 00;51;18;05
Darice
Awe, That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that. Because yeah, I was even thinking back to when, when you said your, your husband mentioned how he you know, he connected the dots for you and, you know, the actual work that you did, you know, early on. And now that you're, you're acting it out now, you know, you're putting it to use to contribute to this.

00;51;18;07 - 00;51;42;24
Andrew
I'm not very good actually at recollecting the past. I'm always been quite a forward facing person. There's always been like what's, what's next? Maybe as I get older I'll be more looking backwards. But even in anticipation of this conversation, I was slightly nervous, thinking, Well, will I be able to remember any of the, having heard previous shows, I know you ask about childhood and things, will I be able to remember any fun examples?

00;51;42;26 - 00;52;04;06
Andrew
But no, it is nice. It's nice to be able to trace the narrative and see the through lines and see the moments where I've certainly grown into certain things or make decisions to, you know, I think part of growing up obviously is deciding to go left or right, and you can think about that in different ways. But it's been it's fun to think about why I made choices about particular times.

00;52;04;06 - 00;52;05;05
Andrew
And would I make the same one?

00;52;05;05 - 00;52;16;05
Darice
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And even you sharing, you know, looking at ancient Egypt books, I mean, it shows that early on you had that, that curiosity.

00;52;16;06 - 00;52;36;06
Andrew
See I think lots of children. I mean Egypt seems to have, people seem to love it and dinosaurs I always think about. Why, why is that the case? I think there must be some hardwiring into children's imaginations about things that they don't see in front of them, they want to see about things that they can connect to. But they are not the things that you, you know, if you looked at your apartment window.

00;52;36;09 - 00;53;08;29
Darice
Apartment window. Yeah. You wouldn't see. No, that's amazing. And so even I mean you already shared different ways that you've contributed to, you know fostering diversity, equity and inclusion in your various roles at Yale and even outside of Yale. So I'm curious, we're kind of almost wrapping up our time together. But looking back on your journey, is there any advice that you would give your younger self?

00;53;09;02 - 00;53;37;28
Andrew
Good question. You know, I think my west coast of Scotland kind of Glasgow background was fairly traditional and small C conservative in that there were lots of kind of set expectations about how people act in the world and I pushed at some of those and you know, was, you know, being gay. That was just that was different.

00;53;37;28 - 00;54;08;20
Andrew
And high school was an experience and we could have talked about that. But that I think, was probably now a very different experience and would be I'd be fascinated to know I should check in with children of friends and things like that and see how what their experience has been like and how that different from mine. But so I think I was always slightly tentative and careful and either and I suppose if I went back I would say, you know, you can what's the worst that can happen if you, you know, be less risk averse?

00;54;08;20 - 00;54;32;15
Andrew
And I suppose I see that in I think I've got better at that and I'm more, I'm more readily take risks or I'm, or I'm more reasonable about understanding what the downside of a risk would be. And I think that's a lot of what we need to think about as a college and the staff members, that it's like we obviously want to be careful and we're stewarding resources and we don't want reputational damage.

00;54;32;15 - 00;54;50;06
Andrew
But there is also things where we can just try things out and see if they work or don't work and that I think helping build a culture where maybe we're a bit more a bit more willing to do that is something that I would tell myself as well. Yes, certainly in the past and in this moment, I try and have that in mind as well.

00;54;50;06 - 00;54;53;16
Andrew
So responsible risk taking I suppose I would call it.

00;54;53;16 - 00;55;18;05
Darice
Responsible risk taking. That's awesome and I yeah, we didn't get a chance to touch on, on your high school years, but I'm curious maybe even again thinking back were there certain lessons looking, looking back at your self during high school years that you know lessons that you learned later on that you wish you could have shared, you know, in addition to, to responsible risk taking.

00;55;18;09 - 00;55;25;04
Darice
But were there any other lessons that you would have told your your high school version of yourself?

00;55;25;07 - 00;55;48;20
Andrew
Yeah, I think I learned over time that I've always had a certain comfort with pluralism. And so I debated in college, for example, in this maybe I was attracted to that because of this, that there could be multiple reasonable presentations that differ from each other. And so I think I've always had that comfort, whether that's been instinctive or developed.

00;55;48;23 - 00;56;17;26
Andrew
And but I think I had a, I was overly quick to take the next step, the wrong next step in attributing, you know, kind of intention to that other view. And as I've got older and experienced more of the world, I've got more of a sense of humility in not ascribing motivation. So I now try and take everything I experience as in as much with as much good faith as possible.

00;56;17;28 - 00;56;35;15
Andrew
So it's I don't know. I think, as I said, I think I've always been reasonably good at understanding that there can be difference. But I, in the past I wanted to explain that difference. whereas now I lowe for this, you know, boundary of mystery or humility or however you want to think about it. So then that.

00;56;35;15 - 00;56;36;16
Darice
Or even dialog, Right?

00;56;36;19 - 00;56;46;10
Andrew
Right. Yeah. You need to hear the other you want the other to explain rather than to presume so I suppose it's a bit less presumptuous I suppose is the, the short way of that point.

00;56;46;13 - 00;57;18;21
Darice
Yeah. So how do you see your work. Your work in your current role, just sort of contributing to some of our broader conversations. And we talked, you talked about how you're hoping to help remove obstacles versus becoming an obstacle, right? But how do you see your work contributing to, to broader conversations when it comes to ethics or law or even just community engagement amongst staff?

00;57;18;23 - 00;57;19;16
Darice
Um.

00;57;19;18 - 00;58;00;28
Andrew
You'll take a very simple one. So we've started orientation for new staff members in Yale college. And so we in the fall we had a pilot program and gathered together people actually from the last year. So it was kind of a large group of people, maybe 20 or so people who had started in the college, either entirely new to the college or people who had worked in other parts of the university and come back to your college and just to introduce them to who we are in this moment and the mission and our values, and also that just in very practical ways, that face-to-face time with senior leaders, with Pericles Lewis and others.

00;58;01;01 - 00;58;37;00
Andrew
And so that's been a you know, that feels like a very practical way of just saying we are working together, we all contribute. We can identify a direction that we're heading. And that we can enjoy each other and learn from each other by being together. So that I think as I've been involved in kind of the university's Belonging work, obviously there are, there are kind of clear cut things that we need to do in terms of just fairness or even justice in a more abstract sense.

00;58;37;02 - 00;59;00;10
Andrew
And then there are often just our regular practices that we want to make helpful and inclusive and that represent the broad perspectives and experiences that we have in our staff. And so a very simple thing, like having said now a four part series, this orientation program, a four part series where we're giving time to people to come together, we're feeding them.

00;59;00;12 - 00;59;21;13
Andrew
It is another thing I learned from the Secretary's office, actually, that if we were bringing people for tough conversations, we should give them, we should give them food. So not that the new stuff orientation is tough conversation, but it is still an opportunity to be in a different mood, in a different place with each other. If we're breaking bread together and getting to know each other.

00;59;21;13 - 00;59;38;08
Andrew
And so that's been out. That's been a nice pleasure. And actually the second session of this semester's new staff orientation is this afternoon, so I'll be going along to that. And that's our undergraduate education folks. So Pam Schirmeister and members of her team will be introducing their work on the academic side.

00;59;38;10 - 01;00;07;25
Darice
Oh that's excellent. And I love that because, you know, when I think back to to my time coming on board to the college, it can be intimidating, right? Because you it's this whole ecosystem, right? And you're and you're learning all these new things about how your college functions and all of these different departments and what they do and how they contribute and all of these new people and what their roles are.

01;00;07;27 - 01;00;24;13
Darice
and like you said, I mean, first of all, even just creating that space to do it. But also, I mean, as you know, we laugh about it, but food, you know, having food, it does it just changes the dynamic.

01;00;24;15 - 01;00;42;15
Andrew
The other thing we do is we for the four sessions, we go to different parts of the physical campus. And so people are often in buildings that they might not be in. If you're, you know, if you're working in admissions, you might not be in Warner House where the office of the dean is or if you're working in financial aid than your in Church Street rather than in a residential college.

01;00;42;15 - 01;00;51;24
Andrew
And so even bringing people physically to different parts of the college is meant be a here's an introduction to the the whole landscape that you're involved in helping.

01;00;51;27 - 01;01;01;00
Darice
I love that. So I'm so happy to hear that that's been implemented because I don't think it's been, at least in my time, it hasn't been done before.

01;01;01;00 - 01;01;28;05
Andrew
Yeah, I think we've always, there's been a university wide orientation. But as you say, that the college can be its own world. And we you know, we both concentrate in our own work but have partners across the college. And so hopefully we weave together folks maybe into even a cohort, you know, if you're starting at the same time as someone from a different office, then you can kind of see yourself over time and have at least have a contact in that other part of the college so that you can understand it and reach out.

01;01;28;08 - 01;01;35;22
Darice
I would love that. I mean, I would even love to see that for not just new stuff, but even, you know, staff who have been here for a while.

01;01;35;22 - 01;01;54;25
Andrew
That's a great idea. So maybe we'll as I said, the first one, we had lots of people in it, this one is a bit smaller. I think it's about 12 people. Maybe if we are, if we're going to repeat this over the years, we could start inviting people with more experience and actually weaving their experiences into it as well. So not just we're trying not to make it purely a presentation, although there's some.

01;01;54;27 - 01;01;55;21
Darice
Like discussion.

01;01;55;21 - 01;02;11;29
Andrew
There's some discussion, but although, you know, we are giving a lot of information, so sometimes the most efficient way of doing that is by someone presenting something clear. But as we go on that we should definitely experiment. And if there's a desire for folks who've been here a bit longer to participate that would be good.

01;02;12;01 - 01;02;19;25
Darice
I'll volunteer. Yeah, I would love to. I mean, because even for me, I mean, every day I'm still learning like little.

01;02;20;00 - 01;02;20;14
Andrew
Yeah.

01;02;20;17 - 01;02;24;27
Darice
You know, details about the different departments and what they do. I mean.

01;02;24;29 - 01;02;27;08
Andrew
We're a complicated place, we're an interesting place, but it is complicated.

01;02;27;11 - 01;02;50;04
Darice
It really is, yeah. I mean, when you when you hear about various groups and, you know, all of the events they're running and all these other things that they're doing for students, it's it's really amazing to see how everything kind of it comes together, you know? And I yes, I volunteer. I would love to be involved a So, yes, we're already coming up on our hour.

01;02;50;04 - 01;03;13;29
Darice
So I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about maybe just future vision. I mean, we talked about this, program, but, you know, how do you vision, whether it's this program or other efforts, you know, how, how they'll change in the coming years at Yale college?

01;03;14;02 - 01;03;42;15
Andrew
Well, I think they, they will change and they will hopefully be responsive to the, you know, their rising needs. We did have a year long strategic planning process where we identified kind of initial areas where the college could coordinate and take forward the work and identifying your high enough level goals so that the different teams and offices could identify their own yearly and multi-year goals as part of that process.

01;03;42;18 - 01;04;07;26
Andrew
So I think I'm quite excited just to see after our first year where we are. Yeah, you know, one part of the strategic planning process was just the process. I think sometimes process is the product in some ways. So having those conversations, gathering slices of the community together, presenting themes, the dean presenting themes at multiple, you know, all staff meetings and hearing feedback means that there is a certain conversation already happening.

01;04;07;26 - 01;04;34;07
Andrew
And so I think I'll be excited to see after the, you know, the first full year of that existing. And it's a you know, it's available online for people to check out where we've seen progress, where we've changed our mind. You know, I think that is also interesting. You know, there might be things that we identified last year as being priorities and the world may have changed or things may have happened in other places that mean that certain priorities slip down lower or have been superseded.

01;04;34;09 - 01;04;56;01
Andrew
And so that's the I think that's the place I look. So I think that was nice, too nice for me to begin in a new role, being able to be part of a of coordinating the planning process. You know, very selfishly, I like me to have lots of great conversations with colleagues and learn from for them and learn their vision for their own parts of the college, but also the college as a whole.

01;04;56;01 - 01;05;03;16
Andrew
So that will be the place that I look to kind of analyze where we've come and where we need to go.

01;05;03;19 - 01;05;26;08
Darice
Awesome, awesome. So finally, my last question for you, Andrew, that, you know, again, it's been so nice to just get to know you today and I'm wondering if you have any kind of message that you'd like to share either with students and staff or both, or even just, you know, those who are aspiring to become leaders at the university or at the college.

01;05;26;08 - 01;05;34;23
Darice
Like, do you have a final message for anyone who is just inspired by your journey and, and where, you know, where to begin?

01;05;34;25 - 01;06;04;11
Andrew
Where to begin, I think be more thoughtful than I was at the beginning, but now I think too, I sometimes get asked to speak to graduate students who are potentially thinking of and what used to be called ALTAC careers, so Alternative Careers, feels a slightly dated term, but, I think the term gets used because it suggests that you might still stay within the kind of landscape of higher education, but not be doing teaching and research.

01;06;04;13 - 01;06;33;13
Andrew
And, you know, I ask those, the things I say to those people include, you know, you have many skills, you've been trained in many ways and currently. You might think of those in a particular way, but you can take a step back and narrate those in broader terms and make those clear to other people and I think that's true of everyone, right, that we all have we all have experience and skills that we can, we can make known to others.

01;06;33;13 - 01;06;53;25
Andrew
So that's I suppose that's the first thing I say. I certainly tell those people not to feel that trapped in their current situation, that it can sometimes seem that there are obvious next steps. And if you know, if you're not, if those steps are not the ones that you want to pursue or if circumstances don't allow you to do so, sometimes I think people can feel restrained and trapped.

01;06;53;27 - 01;07;23;08
Andrew
And so again, I try and just give a broader perspective of there are lots of opportunities. You're, the people I'm talking to are skilled and talented in all sorts of different ways and can be make useful contributions across the board. So I think to those two things are simply to say we can tell a story of what we can contribute and that there are opportunities to make those contributions and that, that and that's a good thing to do for everyone.

01;07;23;11 - 01;07;48;09
Andrew
The other thing that I've again learned myself is you just as much as possible, given all the other busy things in our days, you know, being able to make time to have conversations with colleagues, the informational interview, if you want to call it that, can really open up directions for people because there can be and particularly if people are looking to make a move.

01;07;48;09 - 01;08;14;15
Andrew
But, you know, if you indicate to people that you have an interest and even if you can't name what that is, sometimes having a colleague or, you know, an acquaintance, see you. You mentioned earlier my husband being able to like, create the connections where I had not seen the connections. You know, I think, you know, both everyone from good friends to others who know us through our professional life can sometimes see those connections in ways that we are living them too closely to see.

01;08;14;15 - 01;08;22;19
Andrew
So that's maybe that's unfairly asking other people to do the work.

01;08;22;21 - 01;08;50;00
Darice
Yeah, it's true thoug. I've I've even found, you know, and I and I've said this in previous episodes of the podcast where I, I am in, I was and am more of an introvert and but I did find that things changed in my career once like, you know, you have to kind of come out of your shell a bit, you know, and you have to talk to people and you know.

01;08;50;00 - 01;09;05;03
Darice
I've been pleasantly surprised just by, you know, literally just reaching out and saying, Hey, would you like to have a cup of coffee and just chit chat for a little bit and, yeah, but things do take a turn when you start to talk to people.

01;09;05;03 - 01;09;14;15
Andrew
And I mean, it also makes us human as well. Yeah, you want to have that connection and have that coffee. And I try not to think in two instrumental terms. You know, I'm meeting someone just to.

01;09;14;17 - 01;09;14;25
Darice
Just for.

01;09;15;01 - 01;09;16;09
Andrew
Further my professional career.

01;09;16;09 - 01;09;16;23
Darice
For my career, yeah.

01;09;16;23 - 01;09;34;13
Andrew
But just because it's interesting to meet new people and it's fun to have, whether it's coffee or lunch together, to have that human connection and in a world where we're sometimes looking at our screens a lot or are very highly productive in regimented ways. It's great to break free of that sometimes.

01;09;34;16 - 01;10;11;09
Darice
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, and I and I think that's probably the best thing we could sort of end this episode on is having that human connection and not for any other purpose or, you know, agenda, but just to, just to get to know each other and connecting. And I think at least for me, it makes working here more enjoyable because, you know, I have that sort of I know more about you and I as a person, not so much like, these are all of your accolades and all of these things, but now I just know more about you.

01;10;11;10 - 01;10;12;15
Andrew
We spend a lot of time with each other.

01;10;12;15 - 01;10;13;20
Darice
Yeah, Yeah.

01;10;13;22 - 01;10;33;04
Andrew
In work life, that it's great when we can have the, the richness and the detail where we actually know more of someone and, you know, and benefit from their range of experiences and their perspective in a way that if we, you know, if we're more closed off or more narrowly focused, we sometimes don't get. So I appreciate that being here.

01;10;33;04 - 01;10;36;14
Andrew
And thank you for prompting me to think about things that I don't often think about.

01;10;36;17 - 01;11;36;14
Darice
I appreciate you accepting and thank you so much, Andrew. So in closing, I, just want to share a couple things. You know, in closing, my conversation with you today is, is sort of illuminated the, you know, the, the transformative power of education. But just like we mentioned a second ago, the community engagement, interdisciplinary scholarship, like you mentioned earlier with your early years, your journey sort of, you know, it's a great example of how, you know, your curiosity sort of fed into your path and, you know, all of these different experiences you've had over the years and also just your, your dedication to, to the, to Yale, but also to other projects,

01;11;36;17 - 01;12;04;20
Darice
that foster inclusivity and belonging. So as we conclude this episode of of Yale College Voices, I just want to remind our listeners just, like we said, to embrace curiosity, have conversations and continue fostering collaboration and mentorship in all of our journeys, whether they're academic or professional. So, Andrew, I just want to thank you again for, for taking the time to be with me today.

01;12;04;21 - 01;12;31;15
Darice
And, you know, this is actually, you know, again, I just love being able to get to know people and hear about just how you grew up and, and yeah, I just, I never had an opportunity to do that and, and, you know, to me, it just makes a huge difference in terms of our working relationship because again, just having that human connection I think is so important.

01;12;31;18 - 01;12;45;18
Darice
so we're going to end for, for today, and, you know, again, I just hope that our listeners will listen to this episode and now you know a bit more about Andrew and invite them out for coffee, and.

01;12;45;18 - 01;12;50;06
Andrew
I'm waiting for all the invitations to come in.

01;12;50;09 - 01;12;57;22
Darice
Yes. So again, thank you so much, Andrew, for today, and thank you to, our listeners, and thank you for the support. So we'll end here.