00:00:00:00 - 00:00:38:06 

Darice 

Welcome to our let's see, third episode of Yale College Voices and I'm Darice, in case anyone doesn't know. Welcome. Today I have Susan Youssef, who is a writer, director and filmmaker. I'd like to just read your bio, Susan, and then we'll just have a conversation. Welcome today. Susan was born in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, to a Lebanese father and Syrian mother. 

00:00:38:08 - 00:01:24:20 

Darice 

She attended University of Virginia as undergrad and worked as a journalist in Beirut after college and returned to the states to go to UT Austin Film School. Prior to filmmaking, she was a teacher and also a journalist in Beirut. Susan is a writer, director of two dramatic features, a documentary, seven shorts. And these have all been official selections of film festivals such as Venice, Toronto International, Sundance, as well as programmed in museums including Tate Modern, New Museum, and Museum of Modern Art in New York. 

00:01:24:22 - 00:01:59:18 

Darice 

Her work has won international recognition. Susan is also a Fulbright Fellow Princess Grace Award winner, Yale University Poynter Fellow in Media and Journalism, and a 21st Century Fox director fellow. Susan has been a guest speaker at Harvard, Princeton, and many other institutions around the world. She has been commissioned by the Tate Modern, and her films have been curated at the New Museum and the Museum of Modern Art. 

00:01:59:20 - 00:02:18:04 

Darice 

She will be a visiting professor in film studies at Wesleyan University in the fall, and is in development for her third feature. Three of Susan's films are currently featured on Netflix, which I did check out one of them last night, so you can watch them today. 

00:02:18:06 - 00:02:47:05 

Darice 

It’s Marjoun and the Flying Headscarf, Habibi, and Amsterdam to Anatolia. Susan's first feature, Habibi, is a classic story like Romeo and Juliet. Susan worked on the film for eight years continuously and has said that she never fought for something so hard before, so I'd love to hear more about that story, and that the film defined her whole existence. 

00:02:47:07 - 00:03:18:20 

Darice 

Susan has also led workshops here at Yale at CCAM (The Center for Collaborative Arts and Media). Most recently one on directing actors for camera, which included an introduction to directing scenes for film and episodic, and covered topics such as prepping for shooting a scene, reviewing floor plans, blocks and shot lists, and then directing the scene with actors using those prep components. 

00:03:18:21 - 00:03:53:16 

Darice 

Susan, it's such a pleasure. And just like I told you on the way in here, I want your autograph. Congratulations on all of your hard work over the years. And I'm wondering, you know, hard to believe it's the first time we've had a chance to meet, but I'd love to hear more about your background and anything you'd like to share about how you grew up and what led you into going from teaching into filmmaking. 

00:03:53:18 - 00:04:26:00 

Susan 

Sure. Thank you for that lovely intro. I only have one adjustment, which is I taught at Wesleyan. I taught at Wesleyan from Fall 2020, during COVID, until July 2022. I taught film production courses and screenwriting. But back to your question about filmmaking. 

00:04:26:02 - 00:04:55:12 

Susan 

I'm a first generation filmmaker. It is really interesting that we had the last all staff meeting with Dean Pericles and he was talking that, if I correctly remember, 59% of the students that are coming in are first generation. I was amazed. And the fact that Yale is really actively looking and I found that to be very profound. 

00:04:55:14 - 00:05:22:02 

Susan 

And I had not thought about what it would be like now to try to go to a school like Yale. I grew up, I was born in Brooklyn. As we talked about, I went to high school in Staten Island. And I just remember I got this scholarship to study at Cooper Union. 

00:05:22:04 - 00:05:48:00 

Susan 

I don't know if you know it, it's in the East Village. It's a design, engineering, and art school. And they, for free, funded my time to study for three semesters, art. And that included all supplies. I would be at this Catholic high school in Staten Island, and then on weekends and in the summer at Cooper Union. 

00:05:48:02 - 00:06:10:12 

Susan 

And it was something I had to do. Like all of New York City, there was like a competition to do it, to get in. I had to show a portfolio. I got in. And then when I got to Cooper Union, I found I'm terrible at drawing, I'm terrible at sculpting, really bad I'm talking. And I remember just asking, trying to find the people that I remember had reviewed my portfolio and let me in to be like, why? 

00:06:10:12 - 00:06:55:11 

Susan 

I know everybody across New York City competed for this. There were only 14 of us. So how was I selected? I can't draw and I'm not good at sculpting. And they said, there was something about what you showed that shows a vision and there are all kinds of artists. I knew in that time, obviously if I was doing that from like 15 and 16 for three semesters, I knew that I wanted to be an artist, but I did not know how to put together the reality of being the first person in my family to try to go to college. 

00:06:55:13 - 00:07:21:19 

Susan 

With my parents having very different lives, they really had to work even as children, and they were immigrants which is a common story. Very common story that you're the first person in your family to go to college. But how do you become an artist, then, when your whole existence is about creating security for your family? 

00:07:21:20 - 00:07:35:20 

Susan 

And I didn't have an answer. I didn't know how to do it. And my guidance counselor, his last name was Harrison, I'm forgetting his first name, but God, may, you know, rest in peace. He said to me, what do you want to do? And I said, I want to travel all around the world and I want to be an artist. 

00:07:35:22 - 00:08:02:00 

Susan 

And he said, so you're going to marry rich? And he also told me there were a couple of things going against me. One, I couldn't figure out how to put that reality together. But he also looked at my standardized testing and he was like, your standardized testing is extremely high, you're in the 99th percentile, but on your IQ test, my IQ test was 106 or something, which is extraordinarily low. 

00:08:02:02 - 00:08:18:15 

Susan 

And he's like, I want you to know. And I was like, Why are you telling me that? Like, my IQ is so low, but my standardized testing is so high. And he’s like, well I just want you to know that you're operating differently. At the same time, he was telling me, I don't know how you're going to be an artist. 

00:08:18:17 - 00:08:36:09 

Susan 

He's also telling me you're operating very well, but very differently. What do you do with that info? I didn't know what to do. I got into UVA which was the cheapest school, the furthest away from my parents, the cheapest and the best. That's where I went. 

00:08:36:11 - 00:08:44:19 

Susan 

And then I cried every day the first semester. Yeah, because I was coming from New York City. 

00:08:44:21 - 00:09:05:02 

Susan 

It's a school that at the time was 70% Greek, you know, the Frat system. And I didn't know what to do, was nestled in the mountains. And I couldn't figure out this vision to be an artist. And I'm telling this young story just because Yale's you know, we're talking about the student population. 

00:09:05:05 - 00:09:25:04 

Susan 

I didn't know how to do it, so I did. I don't know if I would tell students this, but I did something crazy, which is that I really delayed deciding on what to do with what I had. My guidance counselor at UVA the first semester was like, you should go to film school. 

00:09:25:06 - 00:09:50:18 

Susan 

You shouldn't be here. This is not the right place. I applied to Tisch for screenwriting the first semester I got in as a transfer. And I couldn't go. I was just, it's too expensive. I don’t want to live with my parents. I stayed at UVA, which I ended up loving. And what happened at UVA, and I'm trying to think of what would help with Yale students, is that it evolved my character. 

00:09:50:20 - 00:10:16:03 

Susan 

And that I got to study liberal arts and I didn't develop film skills, but I studied Arabic as a classical language. I met students from all over the world, and I met people from different backgrounds who were traveling the world. And so from there, I saw all my friends that were doing kind of similar things as me getting teaching fellowships abroad. 

00:10:16:05 - 00:10:52:01 

Susan 

I applied for a Fulbright to Syria, and I also applied for a teaching fellowship in Beirut. And when the offer came in for Syria, my mom was like, there's no way because Syria is very complicated. That's political history. And she was convinced with my big mouth I'd get in trouble. Probably right? I took the teaching fellowship to Beirut, but still avoiding the fact that I was an artist and not knowing how to be an artist. Like, I did not solve the problem from Cooper Union. This problem did not get solved. 

00:10:52:03 - 00:11:10:17 

Susan 

And this problem of screenwriting and not going still didn't get solved. I just moved the problem to a whole other country. And I was extremely ignorant. I had never been to the Middle East, except when my parents took me when I was two as a baby to meet my grandparents. I had no concept. 

00:11:10:20 - 00:11:34:22 

Susan 

And I got to Lebanon, and my family members came to meet me at the airport, and I understood the Arabic and I opened my mouth and I couldn't speak Arabic back. Even though I studied classical Arabic, I had so much division from who I was as an Arab-American that I stopped speaking Arabic back to my family. 

00:11:34:00 - 00:12:07:11 

Susan 

That was the beginning of identifying with the Arabic language identity. And that's where film came together. The first week in Beirut, I saw signs for the National Film Festival. I did a cold call. A young woman picked up the phone and she said, sure, you can volunteer here. I was a teaching fellow during the day, and then I volunteered at the film festival at night. 

00:12:07:13 - 00:12:39:10 

Susan 

I met Isabelle Huppert, the great French actress. The first week they sent me to the airport to meet her. And that began the chaos, which is the film obsession. All of a sudden, I kept delaying the thing, and then it was in front of me, and I became one of the first generation of women directors. 

00:12:39:12 - 00:13:00:14 

Susan 

I'm at the lower, newer edge of it. But still, the women ahead of me were not more than maybe ten years older than me. It was like a new movement and trying to figure out how that works as an American, how that works in cinema. And after two years in Beirut, I went to film school because I had no education in it. 

00:13:00:15 - 00:13:28:10 

Susan 

And I went to UT running theme because it was public and it was cheap and the best running theme. And then things moved from there. But that means it was very long. It was very long from starting to make art seriously at 15 or 16 to actually going to film school at 24. That's very long to avoid, like picking a path, that's eight years. 

00:13:28:11 - 00:14:02:02 

Darice 

I mean, it's long but, you know that was your journey, right? Maybe others have a sort of quicker path to getting to where you are, but I like to look at it. And the reason I say this is because when I started college, I started out as an undergrad and then my family had some life changes and I had to work, I had to get a full time job instead of going full time to school. 

00:14:02:04 - 00:14:26:14 

Darice 

I went part time at night and it took me longer. But I like to look at it as it's, you know, it sees in me because I had working experience by the time I finished school, but it took me longer to finish school. That wasn't my preference. But at the same time, I got some experience and I like to call it some seasoning. 

00:14:26:14 - 00:14:58:05 

Darice 

It's not necessarily a bad thing. I think that but, we always want things to happen quicker right? We want to go from A to B within a few years and be ready and it doesn't work that way. But that's great. Really interesting. To be honest, to me from this perspective, it's like an incredible journey, right? 

00:14:58:07 - 00:15:30:05 

Darice 

Because you went from, like you said, the art classes and then you just decided to go to a whole different country which I can imagine must have been, was that difficult for you to transition to doing the fellowship and then also volunteering? Did it take a while to just become comfortable in that capacity or what was that like? 

00:15:30:07 - 00:15:37:02 

Susan 

Well, I always meet a lot of parents because now we're in the age of parents. 

00:15:37:04 - 00:15:37:10 

Darice 

Right. Right. 

00:15:38:00 - 00:15:45:00 

Susan 

And they tell me they are so proud of their kids who are going straight from this amazing institution, where I'm sure a lot of people have that, so they have to get a job. And they got a job. 

00:15:45:02 - 00:16:49:03 

Susan 

And I say, what about traveling? And they're like, oh, we traveled with them already. And my heart just breaks because I'm like, once you get on the hamster wheel of working, it's that period where you can get out and just study doesn't exist. And there were two times where I took breaks to take fellowships, and one was that fellowship in Beirut and the other one was after UT. I actually then took the Fulbright but to the Netherlands, it was an Islamic Civilization initiative and I could pick a country, and for reasons we can get into later I picked the Netherlands. And both experiences were completely groundbreaking, earth shattering. After all that happened, catapulted me to another dimension. Different person. And even though they were each like ten month long programs, which is really short, you and I are going to blink and we'll be in June and we'll be like, oh, that was ten months. 

00:16:49:05 - 00:16:49:08 

Darice 

Yeah, yeah. 

00:16:49:10 - 00:17:20:20 

Susan 

And so it goes really fast. And I think that especially as Americans to understand my place in the world and I think because again, to place myself in time growing up there was no social media, and even now there are not that many Arab-American directors, especially prominent ones. They're growing more Muslim American directors who are prominent, growing, but still very small. 

00:17:20:21 - 00:17:27:20 

Susan 

But younger, I didn't know growing up that Kaley Houri who wrote Thelma and Louise, is Lebanese American. 

00:17:27:22 - 00:17:30:26 

Darice 

Oh, wow. I didn't know that either. 

00:17:30:28 - 00:18:16:22 

Susan 

I mean, again, it was like 1990 or 91. But she was in my world but I didn't know she was Lebanese-American. She was a screenwriter and won an Oscar before I went to college. I had no concept that this thing was something someone like me was doing. And I was living in this world where I was completely absent and invisible completely, and just no one looked like me on screen and just a void. And I also did not understand anything about Palestine, Lebanon's history, nothing. 

00:18:16:23 - 00:18:37:06 

Susan 

I just knew I had received a very, very strong amount of education around Israel. But the education I received was very compassionate towards Israel. And I did not understand the rest of the region, which was like my actual lineage. And I think I needed to leave the country to actually understand it. 

00:18:38:00 - 00:18:39:05 

Darice 

Wow. 

00:18:39:07 - 00:18:56:05 

Susan 

I don't know how much anymore, because now we have social media and things are kind of catching up. 

00:18:56:07 - 00:19:24:05 

Susan 

But I still think, for any young person to get, they have fellowships, teaching fellowships all over the world. I understand we have student loans. You have to get out to work. But these things pay. It's not free. You're not backpacking through Europe. You're going someplace to work. And you could do it in South Korea. You could just pick a location. And it shifts something and grows another thing. I think I was very immature. I needed it. I was spoiled. I mean, even though my privilege may not be compared to what people consider privilege. 

00:19:24:07 - 00:19:43:03 

Susan 

It's still privilege. I still went to college. I didn't have to work. I mean, I did do that in grad school, but I didn't have to work full time, you know? Still privilege. Even though I was first generation, it was still privilege that I got to go. And I needed to leave the country and especially figure out I didn't know. 

00:19:43:05 - 00:20:09:22 

Susan 

We still don't get an education about the history of the Middle East in school. We don't get that. There was just a big gap in understanding Arab and Muslim culture. And I needed to close it and also heal things that were underneath that I didn't understand were happening in terms of my identity and my self-worth. Like, why did it take so many years? 

00:20:09:24 - 00:21:18:05 

Darice 

Yeah. Yeah. Wow, That's amazing. And a couple of things I want to touch on just based on what you just shared. One, is that you mentioned seeing people like you in the field. And I was curious about, how do you think that's changing? Because it's like you said, there are very few right now. What do you think? How do you contribute to changing this so that we see more people of the same background in the industry? And also how do you carry that message to the students, in terms of your mentorship, in telling stories and like you said, it sounds like you've completely immersed yourself so that you could learn all of these things. Yeah, I just wanted to hear from you about what that meant to you. 

00:21:18:07 - 00:21:47:01 

Susan 

My bigger concern is always for women or reborn non-binary. Because I still feel, especially what I've witnessed, even with men of color, I still see power dynamics will always go in their favor over women of color or non-binary people of color. And I think that that is a conversation that we need to keep having. 

00:21:47:03 - 00:22:14:03 

Susan 

It's really important.  And I've seen it. I know that there's awareness, but I think we have to really protect each other. And when students come to me, I always give them the best resources I have, the best information. I don't hold back. I just say, like, this is this thing, and their eyes will. 

00:22:14:04 - 00:22:33:12 

Susan 

So, like, one thing I'll say it out loud is like, I didn't know this when I was in film school, but the academy, it's online, there is a list of short film festivals that if you get into and you win an award, you qualify for an Oscar as a short filmmaker. 

00:22:33:14 - 00:23:00:23 

Susan 

I didn't know that. So, I showed my work and I didn't keep applying, I didn't try to Oscar qualify. My first feature, Oscar qualified, and I didn't submit. The second one, Oscar qualified and I ran to just make sure in the Academy's screening room to shift the energy, to shift the ability to do it. And is it an act of solidarity with my community and different behavior and being like, we're in the Academy's screening room, people are going to watch it. 

00:23:01:05 - 00:23:27:23 

Susan 

Maybe not, but I hope they did. And that kind of resource, giving that resource to people. They know it right away and it starts working. That was not done for me. And I think it's those small meetings with people, because I'm the film advisor, like when they come to me, those small meetings are when I could just drop something small, and then that's it. 

00:23:27:25 - 00:23:44:07 

Susan 

I live to say it. Go and run. And that's, I think those little things, that sharing of information is what also will help make the gap smaller so that they'll do much more. In the 20 years I've been making films, they’ll do way more than me because they have the information. 

00:23:44:08 - 00:25:04:23 

Darice 

Yeah. That's amazing. And you brought up a topic that came up when I spoke with Daisy the other day on the podcast and actually my guest yesterday, the same thing. Now that you have this knowledge and you've gone through the process and there were things that you weren't aware of that you could have qualified for and sort of like missed opportunities basically, and our duty now or after you've gone through this learning process and probably still going through a learning process, but our responsibility to students or our peers is to share our experience and and hope that, like you said, that you take that experience and run with it because now you have this piece of knowledge that I had to work really hard to figure out. But now I have it and I'm sharing it with you so that you can do even more. And that's what's amazing about it. Daisy and I were talking about just when we both went to college. That wasn't there, we didn't have students around us that looked like us, and then we didn't have instructors that looked like us. 

00:25:04:24 - 00:25:27:18 

Darice 

And for me, I became very introverted. I was so introverted that I was quiet and I didn't really know who to talk to or who to ask about certain things. I missed things that I probably could have done or internships or whatever the case may be. 

00:25:27:20 - 00:25:50:01 

Darice 

Then I find out later, I had no idea because I didn't talk to the right people. And so, yes, it's really powerful to hear that now that you've gone through this experience that you're able to share it all with students and hope that they take it and run with it. And like you said, they get to do more. 

00:25:50:02 - 00:26:25:16 

Darice 

It's almost like we're both parents and we want our kids to do more than what we had the chance to do. And that's awesome. I wanted to hear a little bit more about, you mentioned your experience as a woman in the film industry and the power dynamic. What were some of the challenges that you faced when it came to that? Was it getting, I don't know, funding or, what  were some of the things or obstacles that you came across? 

00:26:25:17 - 00:26:47:01 

Susan 

Oh, my god. It was like everything. I'm going to try to answer it in a way that helps Yale students rather than like laments. Bringing up to the point I remember I was like in my thirties and a friend turned to me and she said, you’re not asking the right questions. 

00:26:41:03 - 00:27:08:17 

Susan 

You're not talking to the right people, so you're not asking the right questions. And you're not getting the information. I remember when I went to Sundance my first time with a short was in my twenties. And there are so few people I knew that had gone to Sundance. This guy knew two people who were directors. 

00:27:08:19 - 00:27:27:03 

Susan 

And when I got there, there was a young man and he was having all these meetings, and I was like, what are these meetings? And he was like, what meetings do you have? And I didn't know that you go to Sundance to get wraps. I didn't know you can go and get an agent or a manager. 

00:27:27:05 - 00:27:48:02 

Susan 

I was so in the microcosm of having come from Austin, making indie films that I just was trying to meet other directors that I thought were amazing. Isaac Julien, I met him. Because I think he had something at Sundance, and we both had the same distributor for one of our pieces, so I went to meet him. 

00:27:48:05 - 00:28:08:15 

Susan 

That was like my list. I was just meeting the other creatives. And it’s because I didn't know that's what you do at Sundance or that you could do. But there are two ways to look at it. One way,  other women of color have told me, women again, or maybe ten or 15 years older than me. 

00:28:08:17 - 00:28:27:10 

Susan 

There are not that many. But the ones who are there have said to me, stop blaming yourself. They weren't looking for you, but I was like yeah, I didn't look for them either. They're like, no, no, no. Other people, just where they're with their short and things happen to them. You were there. And I had a short the next year as well. 

00:28:27:15 - 00:28:48:00 

Susan 

I didn't have just one. It was two years consecutively. And, I think it's really when I look back at it, there's two stories. The story of, I didn't ask enough questions. I didn't know what to get because I didn't feel entitled to any of it. That's on me. 

00:28:48:02 - 00:29:06:02 

Susan 

That’s not on them. That's on me. I didn't feel privileged enough to ask that I deserved anything. I was lucky to get what I got. It was a miracle that I got it. And then the second part, though, is what isn't your fault? Because nobody was looking for you. 

00:28:07:13 - 00:29:30:01 

Susan 

I think if I look back at what was the biggest thing stopping me. Okay of course having to do everything and being the first of a generation of people doing it. Not knowing anyone like you doing it, that stuff. But the biggest problem is the entitlement to get what you need for your work. 

00:29:31:03 - 00:29:59:20 

Susan 

And the stupidity of not realizing that when you are short circuiting yourself, you're not short circuiting you, you're short circuiting everybody around you that you can bring up with you. So, it's not selfish to get paid. It's not selfish to get the right wraps. It's not selfish to protect your work. It's not, you doing this, you can make more work, so you can keep bringing people up with you. 

00:30:00:18 - 00:30:36:15 

Darice 

Right, wow that's really powerful. And you brought up something that resonates with me. And I'm sure lots of people when, like you said, feeling entitled and knowing what your worth is, but demanding, literally demanding that respect, that whatever it is, whether it's the respect, the recognition or the compensation or the resources that you need. 

00:30:36:17 - 00:31:25:11 

Darice 

That was really powerful because, like you said, you all sat in similar workshops or came up together. But, people take the tools they receive. They take the tools and do things, do it their way or do things differently and figure it out. I'm wondering if you could tell me, since you had that feeling of, I don't want to call it entitlement, where like, if you mean that you didn't push hard enough? 

00:31:25:13 - 00:32:19:14 

Darice 

And if that's the case what would you recommend to students who are coming into this field now or especially like you said, a women or who are looking to get into the film industry and they're not sure because like you said, there is a power dynamic and there are so few female directors, what would you recommend to get past that, to really get past that feeling of not being uncomfortable with making those demands, demanding that respect, or compensation, whatever the case may be? 

00:32:19:16 - 00:32:50:18 

Susan 

Well, I think the few women that I know that have done really, really well come from very privileged backgrounds. Were able to study at universities that were Ivy Leagues. But whose parents had a lot of money, so they had a lot of padding. There was a lot of room to make mistakes or a lot of people to ask for money from to get investment. 

00:32:50:19 - 00:33:06:01 

Susan 

There was a lot of support. You didn't have to do a lot of other jobs, other than trying to make a film. First of all, we have to give ourselves permission to understand that if we don't come from a lot of money or if we have student loans. 

00:32:58:01 - 00:33:29:12 

Susan 

I still have my graduate school student loans, if we have student loans, that this is a real thing, there's a financial thing happening. That it is a responsibility, that we’re dealing with that. And I'm not going to out the really powerful women filmmakers but, there are powerful filmmakers that I am aware of. 

00:33:29:14 - 00:33:51:23 

Susan 

A lot of them come from means. And I think one thing is to educate yourself and go look. Look up your favorite woman filmmaker. Figure out what their background is. I promise you, most of them come from means. And I think that not as a thing to stop you, but as a thing to be like okay. 

00:33:51:25 - 00:34:11:10 

Susan 

I already have a thing that's difficult. And then the other thing of like having children. There is a big gap between my second feature and now the third, because I have a child with special needs, and that means the momentum slowed down. I think the first thing is. 

00:34:12:12 - 00:34:34:01 

Susan 

Okay, looking money, looking at fertility. Also having children, you are having a whole lot of stuff happening biologically. That's very serious, right? A lot of women do and what does that mean? You already have two things happening that are challenging. And then give grace for that. 

00:34:34:03 - 00:35:01:08 

Susan 

Okay, let's put that aside. That's insane, that's hard, what am I going to do? And then the third part, I really think, is how much do you want it? And I am possessed, I am woken up, I am not lying. I wish I could lie to you at one, two, or three o’clock every single night by the ambitions for the films, for the next ones. 

00:35:01:10 - 00:35:28:14 

Susan 

And there are three that are sitting. And I finally purged the third feature script out of my body. The other two, I'm like ok, keep moving-you have pitches, treatments. Move them to next steps, keep the wheel. And to the point that it's to understand that my self-worth. 

00:35:28:16 - 00:35:35:12 

Susan 

Because I don't come from an entitled background because no one was looking for me. 

00:35:35:14 - 00:36:03:19 

Susan 

That the actual confidence comes from doing it and then watching it come real. But that means that you actually have to do it and you have to do it even though you're broke. And I think I told you on the car ride here, I totaled my car. And I spent the rest of grad school on a bicycle because I used the money from the car to pay for my short. 

00:36:03:21 - 00:36:23:18 

Susan 

That was the one I went to Sundance. But in other words, by any means necessary. But at the same time I am not saying go barriers. You know, I've done it in credit card debt. I'm saying, learn how to keep spreadsheets. Learn how to count your money. 

00:36:23:20 - 00:36:48:01 

Susan 

Learn, what does a budget look like? What are the numbers to make that thing? And make it your vertical mission to make it. If it takes you ten years to make a feature, it takes you ten years. Habibi, I wrote in treatment for 2003. We didn't shoot it until December 2009. Six years and it just took me that long. 

00:36:48:02 - 00:37:08:04 

Susan 

So even though I had shorts at Sundance and all that stuff, it just took that long. So I think that's the only thing I can say is to actually be aware of the difficulties. Write down what you need. And then say, okay, I don't know if I deserve it. 

00:37:08:06 - 00:37:17:04 

Susan 

Maybe I don't feel I deserve it, but I'm going to just do the actions. Until the thing becomes real. And then I promise you, it becomes real. 

00:37:17:06 - 00:37:37:16 

Darice 

Yeah, that's really powerful. Again, going back to that, that feeling of I don't deserve it. And it's like even when I started off with you and I said, I feel like I want your autograph, heck yeah! 

00:37:37:04 - 00:38:06:16 

Darice 

All the stuff that you've done is amazing. Your accomplishments they're amazing and no matter how long they took you, you know what I mean? That part doesn't matter. And like you said, I feel like that's your journey, whether it took two years, whether it took ten years, that was your journey, it makes you who you are, and it makes you special. 

00:38:06:18 - 00:38:49:11 

Darice 

And I love that, with what you just said in terms of sharing that knowledge. You may have this vision for a film, but all of the other little details that folks don't even know that you may have to figure out. Like you said spreadsheet, organizing all this stuff, organizing your thoughts and keeping track of spending. That's really powerful and I'm a new fan. 

00:38:49:13 - 00:39:00:00 

Susan 

Thank you! It doesn't feel like that. It feels to me because I've witnessed Barry Jenkins, but he's not the only one I've witnessed. Dee Rees I was in a lab with her. 

00:39:01:02 - 00:39:27:21 

Susan 

I could keep going, because I've witnessed them. I feel what I've done is minimal. And that I should do better. But I’ve been told what I've been told. I guess it's like when you get to Yale. 

00:39:19:21 - 00:39:39:15 

Susan 

I’m trying to imagine what it's like for the students. They've arrived, but then you're at Yale and then I'm sure your colleagues at Yale are doing crazy stuff. Like crazy good and then you're like oh god! 

00:39:39:21 - 00:39:43:15 

Darice 

What have I done? 

00:39:43:21 - 00:39:47:15 

Susan 

I got here and they're going to blah blah when they graduate. 

00:39:47:16 - 00:40:06:17 

Susan 

I think it's kind of like that. And because when I look, one thing I did, ten years ago. One day, I decided to look up Soderbergh's IMDB. And I was just like oh my god, I can't imagine having made this many films in this many years. 

00:40:06:18 - 00:40:29:17 

Susan 

Really good films. Not just one amazing film, because some directors you could see it's wavy. And I think what I had to tell myself, the world that you're operating in, it's not the same once you're in the machine. Things move differently. 

00:40:29:20 - 00:40:53:07 

Susan 

And that the timeline is your timeline. I have to be aware enough to compete for myself, but I also have to tell myself that it doesn't really end. That you can keep going. And a big person that people have told me to look at is Terrence Malick. 

00:40:53:09 - 00:41:20:01 

Susan 

But Terrence Malick had enormous gaps between his features. I just say, all right, now I'm old enough to know what's possible. It's not like before you didn't know. Now you know. So can I do it? But also, I think for Yalies and everyone else. 

00:41:20:03 - 00:41:26:05 

Susan 

Sometimes you're dealt a hand and what are you going to do? 

00:41:26:07 – 00:41:27:02 

Darice 

What are you going to do? 

00:41:28:05- 00:41:44:03 

Susan 

Your parents, you've a sick parent or you have a disability or something else beyond gender and privilege, right? And what are you going to do? I'm just like, okay, I know I'm obsessed with being creative. 

00:41:44:07 - 00:42:01:01 

Susan 

I want to do better than I've done. I want to do better because I want that for my self-confidence. And I want that to be of service. I really want to be of service. I really want to be proud of what I did for my community. So how do I show up? 

00:42:01:03 - 00:42:12:06 

Susan 

And then can I accept it if I fail? Because Darice, maybe in a year? I still haven't made my third feature, maybe in two years? I still haven’t made my third feature, maybe in three years? I still haven’t made my third feature. Like, what am I going to do? You know, I'm going to just be like, oh I was proud because every single day I took the steps. 

00:42:12:09 - 00:42:44:07 

Susan 

I do an exercise now every morning. I've been meditating for a very long time, I’m a meditator.  And right before, I was just like, okay, just meditation to get calm. And now after meditation, I do one more stop, which is I write down for myself the list. These are necessary because I'm a mom and I work. 

00:42:44:09 - 00:43:05:22 

Susan 

The things I have to do and then the things I want to do as a creative. I might write down this thing, watch that one movie again there's a storyline you need to look at. There's like, a thing. There's a movie I need to look at because it's a storyline. 

00:43:07:00 - 00:43:20:11 

Susan 

I think I need to look at to help me figure out something that I think is not that strong. The manuscript. I wrote that two days ago. I still haven't done it but, it's something I wrote down, and then I know because I wrote it that I'm going to come back and visit it. 

00:43:20:14 - 00:43:34:05 

Susan 

I think the process now is writing down as many things that I need to do so that it's a map and then telling other people. 

00:43:34:14 - 00:43:42:05 

Darice 

Right. Right. Yeah. And you brought up. I mean, and I know lots of moms, or parents, who go through the same thing. 

00:43:42:07 - 00:44:03:21 

Darice 

It's like once you have kids, they take over. They take over your life. And then it becomes this juggling act of you have to work, you have to provide somehow. And then there is this stuff that you would love to be able to have time to do or accomplish. 

00:44:03:23 - 00:44:24:04 

Darice 

And I did the same thing, I used to kind of beat myself up about it because it was like okay. There are all these things I can't do because I'm also trying to be a good mom. And that's pretty good, too. I'm like, that's a good thing right? I want to be a good mom. 

00:44:24:06 - 00:44:53:08 

Darice 

I want to be a good parent. And that juggling act of trying to figure out, well, I'll still be a good mom, but I still want to do this other stuff. How do I do that? And what I'm getting back to is that you brought up a couple points, almost like it's, I don't want to call it like an imposter syndrome, but in some ways it is. 

00:44:53:10 - 00:45:28:22 

Darice 

It's like, oh you know like, am I good enough or did I do enough to get this accolade or I'm watching people around me achieve whatever. Whatever you consider as a success and I'm not there yet. And this is just my own story, I used to feel that way, especially once I had kids and things. My career sort of derailed for a little while. 

00:45:28:24 - 00:46:03:11 

Darice 

And then it was like, okay I'm trying to reel it back in. How do I reel it back in and be able to do the things that I still love but yet, be a good mom? I guess what I'm getting at is, you mentioned some of the things that you do to try to stay grounded and not beat yourself up about not looking, the grass is greener on the other side or how all these people are doing all of these things. 

00:46:03:13 - 00:46:43:18 

Darice 

I guess what I'm wondering is going forward, how do you see yourself planning out or if you have time? Like you said, you try to write down everything that you're doing, but how do you give yourself some credit for what you've accomplished so far? Like you said, you write out a map of what you plan to do. So how do you reward yourself in that? 

00:46:43:20 - 00:47:07:00 

Susan 

Well one of the things we as film advisor’s get is PTO days. What I did was set the PTO days for creative work. I'm not spending that to go on vacation. I think we did one night at Cape Cod. 

00:47:08:00 - 00:47:25:04 

Susan 

The other days are being used for creative writing. Then I can tell myself it's guilt free. Because well, you're getting paid for the day that you're writing. So, you're not taking time away from something else that you need to do for your family. 

00:47:26:06 - 00:47:45:14 

Susan 

You're literally getting paid right now to write this. That's like just a quick trick. You trick yourself because of writing and then directing. That's my favorite thing in the whole world. I really love being with my daughter and then my poor husband. 

00:47:46:14 - 00:48:02:13 

Susan 

Let's say family will be great, they're important, and they're sacred. I'm very aware that she's very small for a very short period and I think that's another thing for all creators. It's a very small period that we're here in a very small period that we can move our bodies. 

00:48:03:15 - 00:48:26:00 

Susan 

We have a lot of time in old age now these days, and we don't know what kind of old age we're going to have. So, to really be like I'm going to use my time to live and enjoy my time. But I also am so obsessed with making films. So how? The PTO days are a great trick. 

 00:48:27:03 - 00:48:44:13 

Susan 

The other thing I did besides the PTO which was a short-term trick is to gamble on myself. It's Professor Charlie Musser, he told me directors are gamblers. He said professors are disciplined. When he told me I'm a gambler, it was like the Matrix. 

00:48:45:15 - 00:48:47:22 

Darice 

You start seeing the numbers. 

00:48:48:15 - 00:49:10:22 

Susan 

That's it! That's what's happening. I guess, I am gambling. I'm gambling with my life. I guess to make myself feel better because in the end I know I have an MFA, I can be a professor, and I like it. 

00:49:11:22 - 00:49:19:12 

Susan 

When we do the workshops, I'm happy to do them. I just did one with Charlie, it was a documentary and I love it. It's not that I don't love it, I do love it. It's just that in order to become a well professor, it takes time. I’m still not to the level that’s as high as of my filmmaking. 

00:49:20:12 - 00:49:48:17 

Susan 

I remember there's a film programmer who passed away, by the name of KIM Dong-ho. He's from Korea, and he founded the Pusan International Film Festival, which is like the Cannes of Asia. That's the comparison, and I would hear him talking about colleagues’ films like they were his. He became a master with that film. 

00:49:49:22 - 00:50:20:19 

Susan 

I know my dream is to make the film where I've mastered. Where it's like she's the masterwork and I'm such a dork, like, laughing about that creative act. To me, the congratulation is that I am taking that gamble. If I fail…I've just told myself, I'm not going to. I told myself you're not going to fail. What can I tell you? 

00:50:21:21 - 00:50:40:00 

Darice 

Yeah, you have to, right? Because if you look at it as “oh it's not going to go well.” You know what I mean? With any piece of work, if you look at it as “oh, it's just not going to be good, but I'm just doing it.” It's almost like you're holding yourself back. 

00:50:41:02 - 00:50:56:08 

Susan 

I don’t mean to interrupt you, but I could do it micro. Let's say I want to make the master work, but I never get the studio support, I never get the reps, and I never get the millions. You could still make a master work on the budgets I've had, and I know how to do that. 

00:50:58:09 - 00:51:12:22 

Susan 

So now I think what I am missing is the deadline. I haven't put a deadline on myself which I think if we were thinking about our students, we'd say put a deadline, put a deadline. 

00:51:13:00 - 00:51:45:01 

Darice 

Yeah, in some ways, or at least make a goal. This is just from my perspective, because I don't know a ton about filmmaking, so but at least for me, I try to establish myself. For example, this day I want to be doing X, Y, Z, or I want to try to fit this. Even with this podcast, this came up as a discussion and it kind of grew. 

00:51:46:01 - 00:52:13:19 

Darice 

Initially, we wanted some content for our Yale college site and then the idea just kept going and then we got some funding for the podcast. So, I looked at trying to buy equipment. You know all this fancy equipment, set it up myself, then I'm like, I don't know about this. You know, I'm a techie, but it was taking me too long to try to figure it all out and then that's when I came down to the studio here. 

00:52:14:19 - 00:52:33:14 

Darice 

In my mind, I really wanted to be able to have at least a few sessions recorded by the fall. I tried a couple of different methods you know; some online tools and things like that but I didn't like them. 

00:52:34:16 - 00:52:58:00 

Darice 

I mean, they were okay, but it wasn't what I visualized, you know? So long story short, what I'm getting at is I did all these things and as I mentioned them to some of my colleagues, they were like, you did a lot! Although I don't look at it that way. 

00:52:59:00 - 00:53:24:00 

Darice 

I'm like that I didn't do enough. I'm still trying to figure it out and do all these things and I forget, I guess it is a lot. Going back to you with the same idea, I started researching because we hadn't met before, and I wanted to learn more about you. I'm like, she's on Netflix? Are you kidding me? 

00:53:24:00 - 00:53:28:17 

Sarah 

It doesn't feel like that. 

00:53:24:00 - 00:53:45:17 

Darice 

I know, but that is that's awesome! That alone I mean if I were someone. It's so funny because and this is a long story, I had a conversation with a friend of mine recently but never jumped into it. 

00:53:46:17 - 00:54:09:04 

Darice 

I had an interest in filmmaking, but I'm like, I don't know much about it. So and we were talking about it, and like our favorite movies and that kind of stuff. It's like, how cool is that to have, honestly accomplishing having your films be on this tool that millions of people use to watch movies. 

00:54:10:04 - 00:54:56:06 

Darice 

To me that's huge, from my perspective. That’s an amazing accomplishment. I guess what I'm getting at is just giving ourselves some credit and grace and our own recognition of our own accomplishments is like we forget. Yeah, this is a lot, you're juggling all these things. Being a parent, running workshops, doing all these things, and thinking about your next features. That's pretty amazing, it's amazing work.  I realize that we're already up in our hours, I don't have enough time to talk to Susan. I need another hour! 

00:54:57:08 - 00:54:54:22 

Sarah 

May I ask you questions? So when you came up with a deadline, you said, I'm going to get this podcast on by this date? 

00:54:55:00 - 00:55:25:14 

Susan 

I would like to know how you decided on the deadline? I think the reason I don't create deadlines is because I'm a perfectionist. So, I don't want to send the work out and there have been studies about this, women versus men that it's like genetic, like something to do with that. The way that women had to evolve and how men had to evolve. 

00:55:26:16 - 00:55:33:06 

Sarah 

So, for me, the reason I resent the deadline is not because I'm procrastinating, I'm working. It's because I want it at a level. 

00:55:34:16 - 00:55:54:06 

Darice 

At a certain level. I'm totally like that. I could have gone a few different routes in terms of recording this. There were some tools that I looked into, and I didn't like how it was turning out. 

00:55:45:06 - 00:56:10:13 

Darice 

Then when I considered buying my own equipment and even with that, I felt like, well, I don't even know if I'm going to get the quality that I'm looking for- if I do all of that. Over the summer I spent a ton of time like researching and talking to a lot of different folks across campus, different departments, and OPAC. 

00:56:10:15 - 00:56:47:22 

Darice 

All different departments that run their podcasts, social media, and all sorts of things I knew I had that vision in mind of what I wanted, but I was like, I have to do my job too. I have to do my day job. So how do I do this? So when I came up with a deadline, it was okay, so I'll back up a little. 

00:56:48:22 - 00:57:13:11 

Darice 

I sometimes have what may not be the best habit, but sometimes I kind of put pressure on myself to get something done because I know I want to get it done. Luckily with this, there was no deadline. I also felt well since we got funding, there was an obligation to have something to show. 

00:57:14:13 - 00:57:39:07 

Darice 

I go through a whole thought process; I have to have something to show for the time I spend. I can't just let months go by and nothing was done, or I didn't accomplish anything. So, I kind of put pressure on myself just to have something by the fall. That was my goal, just to have something by the fall. 

00:57:40:09 - 00:58:12:21 

Darice 

What I ended up doing was which kind of goes back to just normal. Well, not normal, but as you said. As a parent, you write things down and you start figuring it out. I have a little notebook and people laugh! So, I have to tell you some people laugh at me because they see me with my giant backpack and my giant backpack consists of my iPad, laptop, and probably two or three notebooks. 

00:58:13:23 - 00:58:32:19 

Darice 

Yeah, because there are certain things I like to do on my iPad and there are certain things that I like to do on my laptop. I'm just weird that way, I use certain tools for certain things. People, they're like, why are you carrying so much? 

00:58:33:19 - 00:58:58:09 

Darice 

I'm like, I don't know, I need all these things. That's how I get things done. I had a little notebook every day. I basically just made a list of what I had to do. Then every day, between meetings or lunchtime, I would if it took me like 5 minutes just to type an email or contact someone. 

00:58:59:11 - 00:59:23:15 

Darice 

I tried to get a checklist going but it's not easy. That's how I try to do things. You may see me online at midnight or past, 1 and 2 a.m., you wake up and you're like, I have to do this. I'm one of those people to and sometimes I hate it because I'll just wake up at 3 a.m. for no reason. 

00:59:24:15 - 00:59:54:15 

Darice 

Then I'm like, okay, I got to write something down. It was pressure that I really put on myself to do it, because there wasn't a deadline with this. I felt like I have to have something to show for just being allowed to do this. Now that there's interest, I don't know, it was pressure that I put on myself because I felt like, okay, now people know about it. 

00:59:54:17 - 01:00:24:11 

Darice 

I didn't want it to be 2024 and have nothing to show for this idea. So yeah, it was really pressure I put on myself, but I just wanted to have something to show for the fall and my ultimate goal with the podcast was really highlighting staff, getting to know people. 

01:00:25:11 - 01:01:06:05 

Darice 

I've had a really good time or great time meeting the folks I've interviewed so far, including you. It changed me, took me out of my comfort zone because I'm usually behind the scenes. I do the tech stuff. This was like a growth process for me. So now it’s this, it's been a journey. It's been a journey for me. That was pretty much it. Just wanting to have something to show for it. 

01:01:07:09 - 01:01:13:19 

Sarah 

That's so cool that you put like an internal timeline on yourself. No one else was doing it. 

01:01:13:19 - 01:01:39:07 

Sarah 

I will listen to you. Yeah, I will listen to you. You're right. I have not put a deadline on shooting something new. I haven't. I've just been so let me get to the point in the evolution. Doesn't mean I'm not doing it. It just means that the evolution is taking longer. I think it's great to imagine a deadline. Obviously, the students only have like four years. 

01:01:40:00 - 01:01:55:14 

Sarah 

I think it's something with filmmakers because when I went to film school, there was a problem at UT-Austin that people were taking seven years to finish their MFA or six years. The degrees only take three years and it's because they were taking a really long time to finish their films. 

01:01:56:15 - 01:02:13:11 

Sarah 

The woman that took seven years was very lonely. She won a student Oscar. She just kept working on it, working on it, and she wanted it to be masterful. Yeah, we shoot it and whatever she needs to do to make it incredible, it was. It was incredible. 

01:02:14:13 - 01:02:25:01 

Sarah 

Beautiful piece of fiction. I think this is a really important discussion because then what happens while you're waiting for things to be perfect? So I will, maybe when I leave here, take this with me. I will find someplace to write it down. This is the imagined deadline, right? 

01:02:26:01 - 01:02:41:09 

Sarah 

I have to promise you though, I have never, with any of my features, with any of my work. I've never been like going to shoot by the state. Never, I've been like, I'm going to kill myself to get everything I need, and then I'll shoot. The second feature I will tell you. 

01:02:41:09 - 01:03:00:16 

Sarah 

The second feature, we had a problem, the first feature was so successful the second feature I  got a lot of attention. There's a lot to get a film made, the way I've been trained is that to get it to another level, you need like a certain level producer that can get what you need. 

01:03:07:18 - 01:03:35:10 

Unknown 

The resources, I worked my butt off, and we matched with one guy. Then he bought another guy on. That guy, after we raised we raised a lot of money on our side. He decided he didn't want me to shoot anymore. He said he wanted me rewrite and I don't know why. 

01:03:36:12 - 01:03:58:23 

Sarah 

That pulled out hundreds of thousands of dollars from the production, and it led to the other producer also pulling out. Money just vanished and we didn't know what we're going to do. I met with someone. I'm not going to mention their name, but let's just say it's someone like very, very prominent in the film industry. 

01:03:59:01 - 01:04:15:07 

Sarah 

They were like, you're just going to have to go to Arkansas. You're going to have to shoot it. I literally have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars. I've lost producers. Then it was a domino effect. As soon as you lose those people, you lose your line producer, you lose cast, things start to fall apart. 

01:04:16:07 - 01:04:38:20 

Sarah 

A lot of them, because I've known they just don't shoot anymore. They just stop and I was like, well, I guess I have to return all the money that I have. She was like, you’re not going to return that money. You're going to go shoot it. We went to Arkansas. 

01:04:39:22 - 01:04:55:06 

Sarah 

We landed the day before Christmas Eve. We stayed in a really bad hotel with people doing drug deals like in front of them. It was really bad. I just decide to go on a walk, which nobody does in Little Rock. I went on a walk, saw Marriott Residence Inn, and walked in. 

01:04:56:07 - 01:05:10:15 

Sarah 

There was a young woman at the desk and I was like, can I stay in this hotel room? Can I stay here long term? I don’t have a place to stay. Let's just take it that good, I have a really small budget, and I didn't know how I was going to finance it. She said, let me go talk to somebody. 

01:05:11:15 - 01:05:48:17 

Sarah 

She talked to somebody and she came back. She gave me a rate, an incredible rate. The next day when I moved in, she bought me a bottle of Sofia Coppola wine, with a note welcoming me. A few days after that, I got flown first class Memorial Jordanian Airlines to do a workshop in the Middle East. I just kept taking the leap, and it worked out. It was what that mentor told me. She said, you have to go, and she was right. I just had to take the leap, take the leap. 

01:05:49:20 - 01:06:17:10 

Sarah 

Wow! That’s awesome! What a great story, because it ties all this together, your self-worth, taking the leap, and giving yourself some grace. Not necessarily putting pressure on yourself but at least setting a deadline to at least make baby steps. 

01:06:18:10 - 01:06:49:20 

Darice 

I guess that's what I was getting at. Try to make baby steps towards my ultimate goal, but also what's great about chatting with you today is that someone doing something so small that makes such an impact for you can turn into a life changing moment. You spoke to this woman and I'm not sure what your conversation was, but she decided to do that for you. 

01:06:50:20 - 01:07:19:22 

Darice 

It obviously resonated with you and that’s wonderful. I think what you're doing for students, too, and you may not even realize it? You may not even realize the impact you're having on students when you're sharing this information and sharing all these difficult obstacles that you've been through, how much it'll affect them later. 

01:07:20:00 - 01:07:52:05 

Darice 

I wish we had, another hour to chat. I guess what we'll end on is any closing thoughts that you'd like to share just with the staff, students, or just Yale college community. If you have something you'd like to share about yourself to close on about your journey from today on, then we'll close on that note. 

01:07:53:07 - 01:08:19:09 

Susan 

I think one thing I would like to share that like has really struck me, has been something that people have been saying to me a lot in the past year. I've never heard this before, which I think to be very mindful. Some of my colleagues have been saying things to me such as you're a woman of color filmmaker-everyone's looking for you, or you’re a woman of color academic- you could be a professor everywhere. 

01:08:20:09 - 01:09:00:11 

Susan 

I think it’s really important that I’m an oldie and a goodie, but it's still really important that we meet people at a human level and not assume that because of somebody's background. Such as oh it's a white man, so it's easier. Same thing in the other direction. I really hope that at Yale we can experience is that yes, we know who we identify as, but in the end, how far we go really has to do with the internal work that we do. 

01:09:01:12 - 01:09:26:10 

Susan 

To please be sensitive to each other, that we don't identify with people who do because of who they are. Of all the crazy things that have been happening, this is the latest, so it keeps changing. In other words, it doesn't matter how old you are. It still comes up. 

01:09:27:10 - 01:09:55:03 

Darice 

You know, I've been talking about that with all my guests. It's your childhood, your experiences, then going into your college years, your early twenties, and they mold you. Then you carry all that stuff, you carry all that baggage into your adulthood for the rest of your life, right? 

01:09:46:05 - 01:10:11:22 

Darice 

It comes up all the time, right? Then it's like, how do I deal with it? How do I deal with it? How do I deal with that baggage? It's like, can I put this bag down finally? 

01:10:12:00 - 01:10:29:05 

Sarah 

I don't want to ever assume somebody has more privilege than me or less, right? I may think they do; you were talking about it earlier. I may think they do, but I don't know what their other stuff was. I could say, well, that that director is like a billionaire's daughter, blah, blah, blah. 

01:10:30:05 - 01:10:49:19 

Unknown 

I don't know what their other stuff was. It's like on one hand, I say it like to do it to comfort yourself. Then at the same time, to realize that we all have the limits and that we're all carrying something different. So, it's okay to ask for your own thing just to give yourself some compassion. 

01:10:50:19 - 01:10:57:09 

Sarah 

Not to be like, oh you're going to do so much better than me because you are this background.  Don't make assumptions in the other direction or close your door to people's hearts. The person that helped me that day, was a young white woman. That’s who helped me that day. 

01:10:57:11 - 01:11:35:17 

Sarah 

A 24-year-old girl, and I was like 37 or something. If I had come up and treated her like a dodo bird, that wouldn’t have happened. I treated her with respect. With respect, much more respect came back. I think that's the one thing I really want that we give each other. Yeah, that's my biggest takeaway. Which I really wish to give that to the students. I really want to give that to them because they deserve it. 

01:11:36:17 - 01:11:51:11 

Darice 

Awesome! That's amazing, thank you so much. Like I said, I wish we had another hour, and we'll end on that note. Just giving each other respect. I think people forget to do that, you know, just in passing. 

01:11:52:13 - 01:12:21:15 

Darice 

One of my other guests yesterday, Anita Sharif Hyder, we talked about having an impact on someone, even if your moment with that person could just be 10 seconds. Showing some, whether it's compassion, respect, or how you treat them can have a lasting impact. So that was truly beautiful. Again, I wish we had more time to chat. 

01:12:22:17 - 01:12:51:21 

Darice 

I'm just happy I finally got to meet you and get to know you. Now I could say that, I have your autograph somewhere, thank you so much for being willing to do this and being my guest today. Thank you, that's all I can say. Look out for the episode now! We're on Spotify, iTunes, and SoundCloud coming soon right? So thank you so much, Susan. This was awesome. It was great to chat with you today. 

01:12:52:21 - 01:12:53:15 

Susan 

Thank you so much for inviting me. 

01:12:53:21 - 01:12:55:15 

Darice 

Yeah, absolutely.